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On cultural intolerance
(A follow on from Speaking about bad ideas...atheism and race! since a lot of the same arguments came up in the comments)
Why I see cultural intolerance as racist: VERY few people in polite modern western society are explicitly racist in the "I hate everyone with dark skin" way. I tend to use "racist" to mean any tendency in society which consistently and unfairly discriminates against people of a particular ethnicity, even though most of these justify themselves using cultural rather than explicitly racist ideas. If you scratch the surface, a lot of the time these ideas are being applied arbitrarily or inconsistently and it really is about race after all.
I covered the basic ideas in Why you can't trust your values, so this is just a "few" *cough* extra things.
I mean you can't help but have values and judge other people by them, and since you don't grow up in a vacuum chances are you're going to end up seeing people from your own culture as being (on average) better since they follow your values more closely. But you have to be very careful about thinking about where those values come from, and if you're applying them fairly, and what consequences you bring from them.
Short version:
It's ok to say "I don't understand why more americans don't oppose the death penalty, though I guess I can see how it ties in with the emphasis their society tends to place on justice"
It's not ok to say "All christians are a bunch of bloodthirsty savages, just look at the bible and the way they all support the death penalty"
A lot of "obvious" moral situations are actually incredibly subjective, and what seems incredibly harmful and unnecessary is often deeply tied up with everything a member of that culture values so to ask them to change is a lot more significant than it seems.
Also, all cultures are complex and heterogeneous, with every tradition and opinion tying into all the others in complicated ways, and every member of that society having their own unique perspective. The borders and intersections of any given culture/religion/ethnic group etc are complex and fuzzy too. There's a lot of statements here which to be accurate should have "mostly" "in general" etc added in but this post is long winded enough as it is :D
To give a trivial example: wedding gifts. In Australia, everyone gives a gift, and it costs $100ish and is usually homewares, and everyone is told about the registry. That seems perfectly logical to me.
In America, people only give gifts if they feel like it, and so it's considered incredibly rude to assume they'll give you one.
Thus they think we're unbelievably selfish and grasping for so brazenly telling everyone about our registries and assuming a gift, while we think they're illogically coy and etiquette driven for setting up a registry and then not telling people about it unless they ask.
Other cultures just give money, which seems impersonal to us Australians but I imagine they see the giving of gifts we don't want or need (and the giver didn't even pick out!) as an absurd pantomime with no purpose.
Some give larger presents (so small and thoughtless!) some larger (so inconvenient and grasping!) while of course the amount we spend just happens to be exactly right.
And while I can see how those other traditions have their advantages, I am much happier with my own.
On the other hand, my dad is 100% australian and yet thinks gifts are pointless unless you happen to hit apon the Perfect Gift and tends not to give or want them. But he still wouldn't be happy in America, since he disagrees with so much else in their culture :)
Consider the death penalty. Like most australians I find it abhorrent. What's more worrying is the way that we paint asian countries as incomprehensible savages for doing it..but not Americans. Since we've all grown up consuming a lot of american media we can see the cultural context, the fact that their morals are not monolithic or simple, and the other good points of their society. The problem with most other societies, is that we don't know those things, so all we see is the (to us) incomprehensible and morally bad practices out of context, and see them as a homogenous society with no good points. Which is not to say we wouldn't still disapprove even with a more nuanced understanding, but you wouldn't get the "That whole society clearly sucks" knee-jerk reaction.
Another example is "Female Genital Mutilation". I am totally not saying it's good, but it is unfortunately just part of the continuum of unnecessary gynecological procedures performed on women and children either without their consent or after huge social pressure which happens in most societies. So why do we focus so much on it (and it comes up lot) instead of labiaplasty or forced sterilisation or Involuntary sex assignment? Because in all those cases we know the context, so it doesn't seem as incomprehensible or wrong, and we know how complicated it would be to change things, and that this behaviour is just a symptom of entrenched issues. Also, we're aware that there are people within the society working against it. But we can rail against the "strange" practices of other cultures without having to question our own values, society, and complicity, and we can happily talk about how those societies should just "listen to reason" and "simply" change their behaviour. Noone talks about sending the UN into America to stop girls being pressured into plastic surgery.(I came across a really good article about this but have lost it. Here is some discussion of the issues)
Another example is wearing headscarves: for your typical non-muslim western woman, it would feel oppressive, so it's easy for us to imagine it being equally oppressive for mulsim women. But afaict for them it's more like I would feel about covering my chest, just a natural form of modesty, and not wearing it makes them feel under-dressed and uncomfortable. Beyond that, you have the dodgy power balance of women from a non-white culture being told by white people that they don't know what's good for them and having their autonomy taken away, which ties into a long history of racism and colonial oppression, so wearing it becomes a sign of solidarity and self expression (I know, some muslims are white and some people who are against head-scarves are not. As always this stuff gets fuzzy and complicated)
I'm not saying we can't disapprove of other cultures behaviour, but it's very important to try to understand what's really going on rather than having a simplistic knee-jerk response based on limited information. And if we want to work to change other people's society (and that's a pretty problematic thing to do, so it's important to think hard about our motives), we should do so by supporting those within the society working towards our goal rather than coming in from the outside and messing everything up. And really, shouldn't we be working to fix the injustices we perpetuate before telling off other people for theirs?
This is discussed further within the context of religion and atheism Towards an Intersectionality of Atheism and Race.
Why I see cultural intolerance as racist: VERY few people in polite modern western society are explicitly racist in the "I hate everyone with dark skin" way. I tend to use "racist" to mean any tendency in society which consistently and unfairly discriminates against people of a particular ethnicity, even though most of these justify themselves using cultural rather than explicitly racist ideas. If you scratch the surface, a lot of the time these ideas are being applied arbitrarily or inconsistently and it really is about race after all.
I covered the basic ideas in Why you can't trust your values, so this is just a "few" *cough* extra things.
I mean you can't help but have values and judge other people by them, and since you don't grow up in a vacuum chances are you're going to end up seeing people from your own culture as being (on average) better since they follow your values more closely. But you have to be very careful about thinking about where those values come from, and if you're applying them fairly, and what consequences you bring from them.
Short version:
It's ok to say "I don't understand why more americans don't oppose the death penalty, though I guess I can see how it ties in with the emphasis their society tends to place on justice"
It's not ok to say "All christians are a bunch of bloodthirsty savages, just look at the bible and the way they all support the death penalty"
A lot of "obvious" moral situations are actually incredibly subjective, and what seems incredibly harmful and unnecessary is often deeply tied up with everything a member of that culture values so to ask them to change is a lot more significant than it seems.
Also, all cultures are complex and heterogeneous, with every tradition and opinion tying into all the others in complicated ways, and every member of that society having their own unique perspective. The borders and intersections of any given culture/religion/ethnic group etc are complex and fuzzy too. There's a lot of statements here which to be accurate should have "mostly" "in general" etc added in but this post is long winded enough as it is :D
To give a trivial example: wedding gifts. In Australia, everyone gives a gift, and it costs $100ish and is usually homewares, and everyone is told about the registry. That seems perfectly logical to me.
In America, people only give gifts if they feel like it, and so it's considered incredibly rude to assume they'll give you one.
Thus they think we're unbelievably selfish and grasping for so brazenly telling everyone about our registries and assuming a gift, while we think they're illogically coy and etiquette driven for setting up a registry and then not telling people about it unless they ask.
Other cultures just give money, which seems impersonal to us Australians but I imagine they see the giving of gifts we don't want or need (and the giver didn't even pick out!) as an absurd pantomime with no purpose.
Some give larger presents (so small and thoughtless!) some larger (so inconvenient and grasping!) while of course the amount we spend just happens to be exactly right.
And while I can see how those other traditions have their advantages, I am much happier with my own.
On the other hand, my dad is 100% australian and yet thinks gifts are pointless unless you happen to hit apon the Perfect Gift and tends not to give or want them. But he still wouldn't be happy in America, since he disagrees with so much else in their culture :)
Consider the death penalty. Like most australians I find it abhorrent. What's more worrying is the way that we paint asian countries as incomprehensible savages for doing it..but not Americans. Since we've all grown up consuming a lot of american media we can see the cultural context, the fact that their morals are not monolithic or simple, and the other good points of their society. The problem with most other societies, is that we don't know those things, so all we see is the (to us) incomprehensible and morally bad practices out of context, and see them as a homogenous society with no good points. Which is not to say we wouldn't still disapprove even with a more nuanced understanding, but you wouldn't get the "That whole society clearly sucks" knee-jerk reaction.
Another example is "Female Genital Mutilation". I am totally not saying it's good, but it is unfortunately just part of the continuum of unnecessary gynecological procedures performed on women and children either without their consent or after huge social pressure which happens in most societies. So why do we focus so much on it (and it comes up lot) instead of labiaplasty or forced sterilisation or Involuntary sex assignment? Because in all those cases we know the context, so it doesn't seem as incomprehensible or wrong, and we know how complicated it would be to change things, and that this behaviour is just a symptom of entrenched issues. Also, we're aware that there are people within the society working against it. But we can rail against the "strange" practices of other cultures without having to question our own values, society, and complicity, and we can happily talk about how those societies should just "listen to reason" and "simply" change their behaviour. Noone talks about sending the UN into America to stop girls being pressured into plastic surgery.(I came across a really good article about this but have lost it. Here is some discussion of the issues)
Another example is wearing headscarves: for your typical non-muslim western woman, it would feel oppressive, so it's easy for us to imagine it being equally oppressive for mulsim women. But afaict for them it's more like I would feel about covering my chest, just a natural form of modesty, and not wearing it makes them feel under-dressed and uncomfortable. Beyond that, you have the dodgy power balance of women from a non-white culture being told by white people that they don't know what's good for them and having their autonomy taken away, which ties into a long history of racism and colonial oppression, so wearing it becomes a sign of solidarity and self expression (I know, some muslims are white and some people who are against head-scarves are not. As always this stuff gets fuzzy and complicated)
I'm not saying we can't disapprove of other cultures behaviour, but it's very important to try to understand what's really going on rather than having a simplistic knee-jerk response based on limited information. And if we want to work to change other people's society (and that's a pretty problematic thing to do, so it's important to think hard about our motives), we should do so by supporting those within the society working towards our goal rather than coming in from the outside and messing everything up. And really, shouldn't we be working to fix the injustices we perpetuate before telling off other people for theirs?
This is discussed further within the context of religion and atheism Towards an Intersectionality of Atheism and Race.
no subject
Unless you run into a person who is genuinely opposed to the death penalty in all cases and thinks the Americans are also incomprehensible savages (on this matter at least) for doing it...
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
no subject
I would say it is essential that you have values and judge other people by them. The way you phrased that makes it sound like having values is an undesirable trait. I also think that societies can, to an extent, be measured by their attitudes towards "basic" or "universal" human rights... while that is perhaps a Western concept, I believe it is based upon sound reasoning. Others might not agree, which is why I think it's important that people realise that there is no such thing as an objective judgement.
On a related note, I find the attitudes towards human rights in American society to be incomprehensible and savage in many areas, including their use of the death penalty. Every society has failings in human rights, and that is inevitable... but at the same time, some societies have more problems in that regard than others, and I have no problem with criticising them for it. The old rebuttal of "You can't criticise my faults because you have faults too" is the stupidest and most logically misguided argument possible (not aimed at anyone in particular, that line of reasoning just bugs the crap out of me because I hear it all the time).
Forced sterilisation can be justified in cases where it improves quality of life (hoo boy, there's a subjective area). However, in cases where it can't be medically justified, it's viewed as being easily as reprehensible as female genital mutilation - the forced sterilisation of Jewish women under the Nazi regime is commonly presented as one of the most monstrous aspects of their campaign. Consent is the issue that separates it and female genital mutilation from labiaplasty; regardless of whether that consent can really be said to be informed, it's still an important distinction, which is why plastic surgery isn't as big an issue. There's a world of difference between choosing to conform and being forced to conform.
And really, shouldn't we be working to fix the injustices we perpetuate before telling off other people for theirs?
I don't see why it's a problem to do both. Your point on the colonialist mindset is very important, though. Change should come from within a society, not without. It's okay to help change, but not to force it.
(no subject)
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Basic point: philosophy > cultural studies
What about the flipside of the coin? What about cultural tolerance? I mean, it's ridiculously simple to argue that people finding elements of other cultures praisworthy is racist. Orientalism, for instance, grew almost entirely out of the belief that the "peoples of the Orient" were much more "exotic" and "rich" and "developed" and "mystical" than those in the Occident. Similarly, you'll see the same kind of construct going round about "spiritual wholeness" and "bonding with the land" in relation to pretty much indigenous group in the world. And I've seen it argued exceptionally well that that is just as detracting to views of a full and complete humanity for the people involved. Isn't this just as powerful argument when used to suggest that you should never find anything good in other people?
Re: Basic point: philosophy > cultural studies
Re: Basic point: philosophy > cultural studies
Re: Basic point: philosophy > cultural studies
Re: Basic point: philosophy > cultural studies
(no subject)
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Why the death penalty
(Anonymous) 2008-10-03 01:35 am (UTC)(link)(1)"The Death Penalty", by Romano Amerio, a faithful Catholic Vatican insider, scholar, professor at the Academy of Lugano, consultant to the Preparatory Commission of Vatican II, and a peritus (expert theologian) at the Council.
www.domid.blogspot.com/2007/05/amerio-on-capital-punishment.html
titled "Amerio on capital punishment ", Chapter XXVI, 187. The death penalty, from the book Iota Unum, May 25, 2007
(2) John Stuart Mill, speech on the death penalty
http://www.mnstate.edu/gracyk/courses/web%20publishing/Mill_supports_death_penalty.htm
(3) "Catholic and other Christian References: Support for the Death Penalty", at
www.homicidesurvivors.com/2006/10/12/catholic-and-other-christian-references-support-for-the-death-penalty.aspx
(4) Immanuel Kant, "The Right of Punishing", inclusive of the death penalty
http://web.telia.com/~u15509119/ny_sida_9.htm
(5) "Capital Punishment: A Catholic Perspective",
by Br. Augustine (Emmanuel Valenza)
www.sspx.org/against_the_sound_bites/capital_punishment.htm
(6) "Defending Capital Punishment" by William Gairdner
http://www.williamgairdner.com/defending-capital-punishment/
(7) "The Death Penalty", by Solange Strong Hertz
http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/archive-death%20penalty.htm
(8) "Capital Punishment: The Case for Justice", Prof. J. Budziszewski, First Things, August / September 2004 found http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles4/BudziszewskiPunishment.shtml
(9) Just Violence: An Aristotelian Justification of Capital Punishment
http://www.csuchico.edu/pst/JustViolence.htm
Re: Why the death penalty
no subject
Unless you run into a person who is genuinely opposed to the death penalty in all cases and thinks the Americans are also incomprehensible savages (on this matter at least) for doing it...
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
no subject
I would say it is essential that you have values and judge other people by them. The way you phrased that makes it sound like having values is an undesirable trait. I also think that societies can, to an extent, be measured by their attitudes towards "basic" or "universal" human rights... while that is perhaps a Western concept, I believe it is based upon sound reasoning. Others might not agree, which is why I think it's important that people realise that there is no such thing as an objective judgement.
On a related note, I find the attitudes towards human rights in American society to be incomprehensible and savage in many areas, including their use of the death penalty. Every society has failings in human rights, and that is inevitable... but at the same time, some societies have more problems in that regard than others, and I have no problem with criticising them for it. The old rebuttal of "You can't criticise my faults because you have faults too" is the stupidest and most logically misguided argument possible (not aimed at anyone in particular, that line of reasoning just bugs the crap out of me because I hear it all the time).
Forced sterilisation can be justified in cases where it improves quality of life (hoo boy, there's a subjective area). However, in cases where it can't be medically justified, it's viewed as being easily as reprehensible as female genital mutilation - the forced sterilisation of Jewish women under the Nazi regime is commonly presented as one of the most monstrous aspects of their campaign. Consent is the issue that separates it and female genital mutilation from labiaplasty; regardless of whether that consent can really be said to be informed, it's still an important distinction, which is why plastic surgery isn't as big an issue. There's a world of difference between choosing to conform and being forced to conform.
And really, shouldn't we be working to fix the injustices we perpetuate before telling off other people for theirs?
I don't see why it's a problem to do both. Your point on the colonialist mindset is very important, though. Change should come from within a society, not without. It's okay to help change, but not to force it.
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
Basic point: philosophy > cultural studies
What about the flipside of the coin? What about cultural tolerance? I mean, it's ridiculously simple to argue that people finding elements of other cultures praisworthy is racist. Orientalism, for instance, grew almost entirely out of the belief that the "peoples of the Orient" were much more "exotic" and "rich" and "developed" and "mystical" than those in the Occident. Similarly, you'll see the same kind of construct going round about "spiritual wholeness" and "bonding with the land" in relation to pretty much indigenous group in the world. And I've seen it argued exceptionally well that that is just as detracting to views of a full and complete humanity for the people involved. Isn't this just as powerful argument when used to suggest that you should never find anything good in other people?
Re: Basic point: philosophy > cultural studies
Re: Basic point: philosophy > cultural studies
Re: Basic point: philosophy > cultural studies
Re: Basic point: philosophy > cultural studies
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
Why the death penalty
(Anonymous) 2008-10-03 01:35 am (UTC)(link)(1)"The Death Penalty", by Romano Amerio, a faithful Catholic Vatican insider, scholar, professor at the Academy of Lugano, consultant to the Preparatory Commission of Vatican II, and a peritus (expert theologian) at the Council.
www.domid.blogspot.com/2007/05/amerio-on-capital-punishment.html
titled "Amerio on capital punishment ", Chapter XXVI, 187. The death penalty, from the book Iota Unum, May 25, 2007
(2) John Stuart Mill, speech on the death penalty
http://www.mnstate.edu/gracyk/courses/web%20publishing/Mill_supports_death_penalty.htm
(3) "Catholic and other Christian References: Support for the Death Penalty", at
www.homicidesurvivors.com/2006/10/12/catholic-and-other-christian-references-support-for-the-death-penalty.aspx
(4) Immanuel Kant, "The Right of Punishing", inclusive of the death penalty
http://web.telia.com/~u15509119/ny_sida_9.htm
(5) "Capital Punishment: A Catholic Perspective",
by Br. Augustine (Emmanuel Valenza)
www.sspx.org/against_the_sound_bites/capital_punishment.htm
(6) "Defending Capital Punishment" by William Gairdner
http://www.williamgairdner.com/defending-capital-punishment/
(7) "The Death Penalty", by Solange Strong Hertz
http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/archive-death%20penalty.htm
(8) "Capital Punishment: The Case for Justice", Prof. J. Budziszewski, First Things, August / September 2004 found http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles4/BudziszewskiPunishment.shtml
(9) Just Violence: An Aristotelian Justification of Capital Punishment
http://www.csuchico.edu/pst/JustViolence.htm
Re: Why the death penalty