sqbr: calvin and hobbes with a duplicator, Copyright violation: ho! ( not intended to encourage copyright violation) (yay copyright)
Sean ([personal profile] sqbr) wrote2009-01-26 04:26 pm
Entry tags:

Why do we femslash?

First off, the title is deliberately misleading, this is definitely about why I like femslash. But hey, I think that's a problem with most of these sorts of essays :)

Every time I've seen femslash and yuri brought up in discussions/meta, it's generally quite quickly dismissed as not that interesting (or is theoretically interesting but the author knows nothing about it and isn't going to research), and the assumption is that the only people who read it are (a)Lesbian or bisexual women or (b) Straight men. (I've never heard anyone bring up bisexual male femslashers but they would presumably be explained the same way)

Since I am neither of those things (which is to say, I'm a straight woman, not a gay man. The thoughts of a gay male femslasher would be interesting too :)) and there has recently been angst over the lack of femslash meta I thought I'd think about why I like it, and what being a straight-girl girlslasher means. VERY much about my personal experiences since I don't know enough to generalise!

I should say first: I am VERY new to femslash fandom, so this may all be bunk. I've liked the idea since I first encountered the idea of fanfic but had real trouble finding any I liked. Some time last year I was pushed in the direction of comms like [livejournal.com profile] ffslashrecs and got more into it, and late last year started writing my first fanfic, which turned out to be femslash (still working on it, 9th chapter is on it's way :)) Also I do read slash, gen, and het as well, but have a special soft spot for femslash.

And of course not all people fit into any of the gay/straight/lesbian/bi boxes, and I haven't seen any related femslash meta on that score beyond questions about genderswap fic.

Why I like femslash
A frequently repeated truism of fanfic is that everyone is here for the porn.

But, well...I don't like porn. The sex part of my brain and fiction part of my brain are not really on speaking terms and prefer to live separate lives. Unless they're important to the plot I just skip sex scenes and they're certainly not why I read fic.

Sometimes when people say "porn" they mean "stuff that hits your id without bothering with your conscious brain". But even by that definition that's not the only thing I want from fanfic, I seek out (and very occasionally find) stories which play around with canon, poke holes in it's inconsistencies and explore the characters, make my brain work, or at least keep it happy, rather than turning it off. This is why I enjoy a lot of gen. And anyway, some of my favourite varieties of "porn" are femslashy.

Now the romance part of my brain and the fiction part of my brain are on pretty good terms, and while I can enjoy romance about people of any gender/combination since I'm straight there is a certain satisfaction that can only be found in long plotty het stories. But there's a LOT of heterosexual love stories in the world, especially since my tastes are pretty mainstream (eg "Pride and Prejudice"). I do not need to read fanfic to find them. What I look for in fanfic is stuff I can't find in the real world(*).

And what I can't find in the real world are decent stories about female characters. I might find men attractive but I also find them relatively hard to identify with.

Reading "Why we (boy)slash" meta I resonate with the arguments about challenging heteronormativity and subverting canon etc. I like reading romances between equals, and it's hard to really achieve that in a straight relationship (real or fictional :/) But since I prefer stories about women, and in particular am usually more annoyed about the way canon treats it's women, while I can enjoy that aspect of m/m slash I prefer seeing it in femslash.

I think in general (maybe?) most people tend to identify with the protagonists of a story, while I also tend to imagine myself in a story and think about how I would fare (thus my dislike for fantasy which only cares about the aristocracy) If women in that setting are badly treated, I don't want to imagine myself as a man, I want to see the women kick arse and take back their power :)

Also I think femslash taps into the part of my brain that still sees intense friendships with other girls as the most significant form of relationship (Anne/Diana from "Anne of Green gables" was a major OTP when I was a kid though I didn't think of it that way). Even now, while I have plenty of male friends (including my husband) there is something unique about friendships with women.

Issues around being a straight-girl girlslasher

Every now and then I come across discussions about the ethics of women (m/m slashers) writing stories about gay male characters despite not being gay men. A common (but not universally agreed upon) response is that this is ok since everyone knows it's not about real gay men, and the power dynamic is balanced out by the gendered power men have over women in society at large.

Rather more problematic are straight men writing about lesbian relationships ie femslash. There's been some discussion about this and the issues surrounding it but not a lot I'm aware of. Not something I have much to say about myself. Aside: There's also been discussion of the relationship between genderswap fanfic and actual trans* people. This stuff can get complicated.

Something I've never seen discussed specifically, though, is the issues around straight women writing femslash. According to this poll 14% of respondents are straight women so it's not so rare as to not be worth considering.

Now there isn't the same history of straight women creating exploitative "lesbian" porn etc as there is with straight men, and I think there's less danger of objectifying the women into sex objects etc.

But in the same way that (based on meta I've read) many m/m slashers don't imagine their characters as actual gay men but as two male bodies to be attracted to, and/or stand-ins for themselves, I tend to see women in a fictional lesbian relationship as two female personalities I can imagine myself as(**), and this may give me a different perspective on what makes "good" femslash to lesbian and bisexual women. Having read a bunch of femslash I was struck by certain patterns I didn't really like (lots of finding love and then being torn apart by circumstances for example, I want to see the women overcome canon not be beaten down by it) and had to remind myself that I may dislike them because what I want from these stories is not what the rest of the community is interested in. (Of course there's lots of repeated motifs I don't like in other fanfic, so my straightness may be coincidental :))

There are a whole lot of issues around writing femslash that I haven't really hit yet in my own story but am aware of. I have a lot of lesbian and bisexual female friends and have some mild attraction to women myself, but still don't know what it's like not to be straight (both in terms of attraction and relationships, and all the issues around identity, homophobia etc), and am probably going to get some details wrong. Luckily some of these friends have offered to beta so that'll hopefully help :) Of course all writing requires a certain amount of "imagining yourself in someone else's shoes" but if there's one thing I've learned from all these Cultural Appropriation Debates of DOOM is that not all situations are equivalent and it behooves us who are unfairly privileged by an unbalanced society to consider the effect of our actions.

Anyway, I'm not horribly stymied by these worries but I think it's important I keep this stuff in mind.

So, any other straight girl femslashers want to compare notes on why they like the genre? Anyone else with opinions? I'm just rambling out loud really, so welcome people explaining why I'm All Wrong :)

EDIT: Opinions of random strangers very much welcome! Especially if it's to agree with me, but even if it's not :) I've made a lot of changes based on people's comments, I eventually removed all the "edit" marks because it got confusing.

A note about m/m slash (which I do NOT want dominating the conversation except maybe as it relates to femslash :P): When I have made generalisations about m/m slash these have been things I've heard repeatedly said by m/m slashers in meta. I make no claim to them actually being true in general (what would I know?), but they seemed as good a place to start thinking about femslash as any. A subtext to this post which I guess I should make explicit is that I think any generalisation about "What X genre is" or "Why people write X genre" is going to be wrong for a lot of people, people do similar things for wildly different reasons. The title of this post is a dig at all the "Why We Slash" posts which always end up with lots of slashers saying "That may be true for you but it's not why I slash" etc. Noticing patterns of behaviours and motivations is good and interesting, saying "Everyone does X for Y reason" is bad.

(*)...ok, I admit it, when I'm feeling REALLY down I read Elizabeth/Darcy AUS which put new obstacles on their path which they overcome and then they find true love. But mostly :)
(**)I also see them as actual lesbian or bisexual women and if anything can be thrown out of the story if the issues around this aren't addressed, but not in a "that's me!" way.

[identity profile] penchaft.livejournal.com 2009-01-26 07:58 am (UTC)(link)
I recently saw the OVA adaption of my favourite yuri manga and they fucking ruined it.

;___;

[identity profile] sonictail.livejournal.com 2009-01-26 11:44 pm (UTC)(link)
hey sophie, can you email me at sonictail@gmail.com, need your addy to ask you something.
twtd: (Default)

[personal profile] twtd 2009-01-27 06:14 am (UTC)(link)
I will come back to this tomorrow and write a real response when I am not so tired. But for now, Yay meta and thinky thoughts!

Also, I didn't know that rec community existed and I am very interested in that book you linked to.

via girlwank

[identity profile] rhap-chan.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 06:47 am (UTC)(link)
For a long time I considered myself a straight woman, and I remember what I said the last time a post like this came along. Besides the strong female relationships, which really are important to me, as you described, I find a great deal of distaste in the way that boyslash and het porn seem to be focused on the male perspective, on the glorification of the cock, and that's just not something that interests me in porn (I do have a boyfriend, but that doesn't mean I want to read about his perspective on things). I like to be able to imagine myself as one of the partners in a story, as well.

Wandering in via girlwank

[identity profile] jaybee65.livejournal.com 2009-01-27 07:30 am (UTC)(link)
I hope you don't mind a comment from a random stranger, but your description of what draws you to femslash sounds really similar to my experience.

But, well...I don't like porn. The sex part of my brain and fiction part of my brain are not really on speaking terms and prefer to live separate lives. Unless they're important to the plot I just skip sex scenes and they're certainly not why I read fic.

Yes! That's very much true for me as well. If there's going to be sex in fanfic, I prefer that it advance the plot/develop the characters somehow, or, in the alternative, I want the sex to really be a metaphor for something else. Otherwise, I skip/skim it, because, well, it generally bores me.

However, femslash gives me something that no other fic genre does: a *guarantee* that the story is going to be female character-centric. And because I think I have the same kind of character identification style that you do -- as much as I like men in real life (I live with one whom I adore!), and can even enjoy male characters in fiction and mass media, I *never* identify with them. Or at least not in the fannish kind of way that would compel me to seek out or write fic. For me, it's always driven by an interest in a female OTC.
cleo: Famke Jansen's legs in black and white (Default)

[personal profile] cleo 2009-01-27 11:51 am (UTC)(link)
Interesting thoughts. Like [livejournal.com profile] twtd, I'll have to come back when I haven't just stumbled out of bed and am not bleary eyed.

Do you mind linking to my full post instead of the [livejournal.com profile] girlwank stub? There are a couple of links in it to more femslash meta.
alias_sqbr: the symbol pi on a pretty background (Default)

[personal profile] alias_sqbr 2009-01-27 11:57 am (UTC)(link)
Sure, done. I didn't want people to miss any extra interesting discussion at [livejournal.com profile] girlwank, but afaict all the interesting stuff is happening at your entry so it does make more sense to link to it.

Interesting thoughts. Like twtd, I'll have to come back when I haven't just stumbled out of bed and am not bleary eyed

Heh. I'm australian, so I know the feeling of being out of sync with meta :)
havocthecat: the lady of shalott (Default)

[personal profile] havocthecat 2009-01-27 01:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Hee! Yes, you posted in the middle of my night. Which, of course, just means a shiny treat for me in the morning. Though I'm going to have to come back later and read it through when I'm awake enough to parse it. I haven't finished my coffee yet.

BTW, mind if I friend you?
alias_sqbr: the symbol pi on a pretty background (Default)

[personal profile] alias_sqbr 2009-01-27 11:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Which one? I do get the feeling there's a lot more yuri manga than anime out there, unfortunately I find it hard to get into manga.
alias_sqbr: the symbol pi on a pretty background (Default)

[personal profile] alias_sqbr 2009-01-27 11:43 pm (UTC)(link)
But what are your thoughts on yuri?

Just kidding :)
alias_sqbr: the symbol pi on a pretty background (Default)

[personal profile] alias_sqbr 2009-01-27 11:48 pm (UTC)(link)
It's funny how many awesome things can utterly pass one by isn't it? I went on a major "looking into femslash resources" kick a couple times over the past year or so, and have still discovered new things thanks to this recent round of meta. So yay meta indeed :)
alias_sqbr: the symbol pi on a pretty background (Default)

Re: via girlwank

[personal profile] alias_sqbr 2009-01-27 11:49 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, good point: not just female characters but a female perspective, and celebration of the female (rather than a female perspective on how awesome the men are :/)

Also your icon is remarkably apt for this post :)
alias_sqbr: the symbol pi on a pretty background (Default)

Re: Wandering in via girlwank

[personal profile] alias_sqbr 2009-01-27 11:54 pm (UTC)(link)
However, femslash gives me something that no other fic genre does: a *guarantee* that the story is going to be female character-centric

Yes. It's a guaranteed pass of the Bechdel Test :)

Something the previous comment made me realise is that when I like het (or for that matter gen) it's usually still from a female POV and that POV character doesn't spend the whole time Pining About Men or whatever. But given the tendency for fiction (by women or otherwise) to be All About the Menz, femslash is a safer bet.
alias_sqbr: the symbol pi on a pretty background (Default)

[personal profile] alias_sqbr 2009-01-27 11:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Friend away! But be prepared for a lot of random..stuff :)

[identity profile] phoenix64.livejournal.com 2009-01-28 04:04 am (UTC)(link)
I wandered over here via [livejournal.com profile] girlwank as well. I'm also a straight woman new to femslash. I'm so new, actually, that I'm still examining my reasons. I'm also new to the potential political minefields, so there's a part of me that worries if I talk about what I think my motivations are I'm going to get some responses along the lines of, "You're the kind of person we'd really prefer wasn't in our fandoms." Sure, I'm probably overreacting, but. So do other people sometimes.

I think that due to a variety of factors at this point in my life, femslash is a place of safety for me. Thinking about sex can be terrifying for me (many things are terrifying for me these days, yes I'm doing something about that), but not to the point where I am not still a sexual being. I think the difference between my sexual reality and the sexual fantasy aspects of femslash is enough for me to be relatively comfortable.

I'm also one of those people that think that the characters and their interactions in slash usually aren't and kind of aren't supposed to be truly representative of gay men or women. I'm aware that there are people out there in fandom who disagree with that point of view. I never feel confident enough about anything to deny the possibility that someone else knows better than I do. So the more meta the betta! (OK, that was pretty lame.)

Also, I think another aspect of the appeal of femslash is that I'm a generally fannish person, and many of my fandoms have some pretty nifty female characters that I'd like to see as the focus of fannish creation more often. Femslash certainly makes that happen. As you said in an earlier comment here, a guaranteed pass of the Bechdel test. ;)

[identity profile] penchaft.livejournal.com 2009-01-28 05:35 am (UTC)(link)
Shoujo Sect!

I hope more of it is scanlated, I need to find out if the UST is ever resolved...

[identity profile] thenewhope.livejournal.com 2009-01-28 07:00 am (UTC)(link)
hey, you know the Bechdel rules - you can certainly be in my femslash fandom! :D

which is to say, a huge point of this whole round of discussions is to get people who self-identify as femslashers to take a good hard look at the fandom and speak up about how it makes them feel and think and act - and that goes for newbies just as much as it goes for the bitter ol' hags who've been around since the days of Chaucer (I jest! kind of).

to the OP: I myself promise to be back for a more thorough read through and actual THOUGHTS once it's not ass-o'clock and I'm not vaguely drunk.

[identity profile] nico-wolfwood.livejournal.com 2009-01-28 08:31 am (UTC)(link)
And what I can't find in the real world are decent stories about female characters. I might find men attractive but I also find them relatively hard to identify with... I think in general (maybe?) most people tend to identify with the protagonists of a story, while I also tend to imagine myself in a story and think about how I would fare... If women in that setting are badly treated, I don't want to imagine myself as a man, I want to see the women kick arse and take back their power :)


It's odd reading this (and the same sentiment expressed in some of the comments) since I it's very rare for me to identify/place myself in the role of any female character in fiction. About 80% of the time I identify with a male character or characters.
ext_1237: (Default)

[identity profile] lilyayl.livejournal.com 2009-01-28 10:50 pm (UTC)(link)
As a straight woman who loves femslash, I am seconding your comments here. The dislike of porn, the relationship of equals, strong female friendship, etc. The issues of being straight while writing gay is another issue I agree with you upon. Oddly, this never bothered me when I was writing boyslash, but I started to consider it a lot more when I started writing femslash. Perhaps it's b/c it is more likely a lesbian or bisexual woman will read my femslash story than it is a gay man will read my boyslash.

Also, and it could just be me, but the characters in femslash often feel more... real than the characters in many slash stories. More like people than bodies or author avatars.
alias_sqbr: the symbol pi on a pretty background (Default)

[personal profile] alias_sqbr 2009-01-30 01:39 am (UTC)(link)
I don't know it's true of this particular manga, but I've heard several people complain that "yuri" manga tend to tease about f/f UST for ages then go "Oh but really her true love is a man".
alias_sqbr: the symbol pi on a pretty background (Default)

[personal profile] alias_sqbr 2009-01-30 01:45 am (UTC)(link)
I think a lot of people use fanfic as a safe place to explore/exorcise etc aspects of themselves that aren't sufficiently dealt with in "real life". I think it's great people can find that.

I'm also one of those people that think that the characters and their interactions in slash usually aren't and kind of aren't supposed to be truly representative of gay men or women. I'm aware that there are people out there in fandom who disagree with that point of view.

See the way I see it this is true for some writers, and some readers (not necessarily of the same stories :)) but not for all. Slash (and femslash, and all fanfic) is many different things to different people. Which can make it hard to figure it if a given story is aiming to give what you want to get, but that's what good recs and summaries are for :)

And huzzah for the passing of the Bechdel test!


alias_sqbr: the symbol pi on a pretty background (Default)

[personal profile] alias_sqbr 2009-01-30 02:03 am (UTC)(link)
That is interesting. I was discussing it with Cam, and he doesn't think he cares one way or another, it depends much more on personality/interests etc than gender.

Anyway, I guess it helps explain your penchant for slash :)
alias_sqbr: the symbol pi on a pretty background (Default)

[personal profile] alias_sqbr 2009-01-30 02:05 am (UTC)(link)
Perhaps it's b/c it is more likely a lesbian or bisexual woman will read my femslash story than it is a gay man will read my boyslash.

Yes, with the odd exception I think any gay man reading slash knows not to expect it to reflect their reality perfectly, but I worry about someone coming into my femslash expecting a level of truth-to-life I may not be able to deliver.

[identity profile] penchaft.livejournal.com 2009-01-30 04:53 am (UTC)(link)
I don't think there have been any male characters yet.
alias_sqbr: the symbol pi on a pretty background (Default)

[personal profile] alias_sqbr 2009-01-30 05:43 am (UTC)(link)
Well, you may be safe then :)

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