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Anime for Science fiction nerds

I used to think I didn't like anime and refused to watch any, but then realised I was just watching the wrong stuff and found lots I adore, and in general think there's something in anime for pretty much everyone: "Anime" just means "animated films made in japan" after all, and covers a huge range of styles and genres. So I decided to put together a Swancon panel about anime series/movies I think would appeal to people at the con who don't consider themselves anime fans, and being me am making a post about it first. The aim is not to convert people into becoming anime fans, just to give them a chance to watch some stuff they might like even if anime in general is not for them. The panel may not end up happening but hey, chances are more people will read this than would have come anyway :)

In my opinion, the three main reasons you might not like an anime:
1) It's just not very good. Sturgeons Law applies to anime as much as anything else;
2) It relies on lots of specifically japanese tropes and tastes, and you're neither japanese nor very into japanese culture (it's important not to mix this up with (1): anime is made for japanese people, not australians, there's no reason they should try to aim for our tastes)
3) It's just not your sort of story.

So all of the following anime are (imo) good, don't rely on too much knowledge of japanese culture, avoid some of the tropes which people can find off-putting, and are kind of science fiction/fantasy-ish. EDIT: Also I've avoided stuff which provokes strong hatred in some people, even if everyone else loves it, to avoid someone watching one, hating it, and deciding this proves they really do hate all anime.

I did a poll to find out (a)What put people off anime and (b) What anime non-fans liked, and there are the resulting recommendations. Feel free to suggest more/rant about how these ones suck, especially if you're not a fan of the genre in general but have a few pet favourites. My personal taste has informed the reviews quite a bit :) Keep in mind that this post was made with Swancon attendees (ie west australian sf nerds) in mind, though other people's opinions are welcome.

Nb: an "OAV" is a telemovie.

I'll try to warn for any of things people found off-putting (nb Fanservice=gratiutous shots of large breasted women in skimpy clothes and compromising positions) None of these are about schoolgirls or giant robots :) I've also mentioned those that I know have a good english dub, since I know some people don't like subtitles.

First, and most significantly, we have the work of Hiyoa Miyazaki and his Studio Ghibli. Everything he creates is great, and if you like his stuff there's a large catalogue to work through. They're all engaging, beautiful, and inventive, and most have a strong connection to nature and the environment (also young girls who can fly :D). The recent films (Princess Mononoke, Spirited Away, Howl's Moving Castle) all have very professional english dubs with big name hollywood actors.

Here are some highlights (I'm assuming that if you like these you'll be motivated enough to look up the rest on your own):

Princess Mononoke (movie) (trailer): A young man in medieval Japan goes on a quest to rid himself of a curse, and encounters various factions fighting over forest, including the forest itself.
My Neighbour Totoro (movie) (trailer): A family moves to a new town in postwar rural Japan and the girls discover new friends in the forest. Very sweet.
Spirited Away (movie) (trailer): Like "Alice in Wonderland", but awesome in a very different way :D Very weird and a bit slow to start.

And now the rest:

Cowboy bebop (tv series + movie) (trailer for the movie (watch the tv series first!)): Gritty but entertaining story of bounty hunters in space. Did the space western before "Firefly" :) Lotsa fanservice, but not in an overly creepy way. Fairly violent.
Witchhunter Robin (tv series) (opening): Quiet melancholy story of a young woman with supernatural abilities recruited to hunt down others like her who have gone rogue. A bit slow, and I didn't really like the ending.
Haibane Renmai (tv series) (opening): Sweet strange story of a girl who wakes up as an angel in purgatory... or something. Slow, not much happens, but very sweet and atmospheric.
Mushi Shi (tv series) (trailer plus live action movie trailer because it looks interesting :)): Very atmospheric tales of a man who deals with nature spirits in ancient Japan. Slow and sedate, and no continuing plot. Has scary elements.
Planetes (tv series) (trailer): Garbage collectors in space! Genuine hard sf portrayal of what it might be like living in space in the future, including the effects of free fall etc. The main downside is it's realism: not much exciting happens :) Probably the most patchy anime here quality wise, but also the most science fictiony.
Full Metal Alchemist (tv series) (trailer):Set in an alternate 19th century Germany with alchemy. Two brothers go on a quest to undo a horrible accident. My main problem has been that it goes from cheerfully silly to rip-your-heart-out angst/gore with no warning. The most stereotypically anime-ish show here, and does have a large suit of sentient armour (not technically a robot :)) Apparently the movie is terrible.
Hellsing (tv series) (opening): Very violent but cool secret-english-vampire-hunter-organisation story. Also there's "Hellsing Ultimate" which is apprently also good. Has a lot of anime horror tropes if that sort of thing bugs you. Has a quite good dub, they even gave them english accents.
Paprika (movie) (trailer): Dream researchers find that someone is messing with the boundaries between dreams and reality. Very surreal. I LOVE the work of the director Satoishi Kon, all his stuff is amazing.
Vexille (movie) (No trailer because it has spoilers :)) Japan cut itself off from the world to explore human-like cybernetics. Ten years later an american special forces agent breaks through to find out what Japan has become. This really feels more like a western sf movie than an anime, with realistic 3D graphics, great action, a (mostly) plausible future and an emotionally complex exploration of the self in a technological world.

I'm a bit torn about:

Ghost in the Shell (tv series + 2 movies) (Trailer for the movie): It's very good for what it is, and I really liked the movie (I found the tv series hard to get into) but it inspires very divided opinions. Relatively realistic near-future cyberpunk from the POV of a cyborg police woman in Tokyo. Has lots of robots and nudity/scantily clad women but both played fairly straight and seriously. Can be a bit confusing.
El Hazard (short tv series) (opening): Schoolkids and teacher find themselves suddenly transported to a far away magical kingdom and are drawn into an epic battle taking place. A lot better (and funnier) than that makes it sound (eg main male character has to impersonate a princess for a chunk of the episodes :)), but does have a bit of fanservice and is sometimes cheesy (the end credits have all the female characters naked for no apparent reason!) Has a great english dub. Apparently the later tv series etc terrible.
Samurai Champloo (tv series) (opening) I only got one disc in and then remembered I find samurai REALLY BORING. But I enjoyed it as much as is possible given the genre, it's remarkably cool and quite entertaining. About two samurai who would kill each other (on principle, for the challenge) but are honour bound to help a young girl so have to settle for fighting those they encounter on the way (and maybe helping a few innocent people while they're at it) Violent, as you'd expect :)
Appleseed (trailer) I accidentally watched the sequel (Ex Machina), which was pretty good but still definitely in the mech anime genre. Nicely rendered 3D robots and explosions etc if you like that sort of thing :)

Other people rec but I didn't like, partly because they hit my "I don't like it in anime" buttons (ie giant robots and schoolgirls)

The Vision of Escaflowne (opening) Given that it's about a schoolgirl who gets magically transported to a mystical kingdom which fights with giant robots, and uses very dated and imo ugly animation ...it's not bad :)
RahXephon (opening) I tried this a few years ago and decided it a was a bland, nonsensical knock off of Evangelion. But other people seem to like it :) Note that it is about a teenager and his giant robot.

I haven't seen but other people recommend:

Noir (tv series) (opening)
The Sky Crawlers (trailer)
Vampire Princess Miyu OAVs (opening to tv series) I found the tv series of this unwatchably dull and stupid, but apparently these are better.
Last Exile (opening)
Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou (opening)
Aria (opening)
Wings of Honneamise (trailer)

And finally, for contrast, Neon Genesis Evangelion (opening): It's a dated surreal violent show with lots of fanservice about schoolkids in giant robots fighting angels :D Not recommended for the faint at heart or those intolerant of anime tropes, but it has a special spot in the heart of many anime fans, myself included :)

Watching all those trailers has made me want to go watch these all again...

EDIT: Post I made to the swancon lj.

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What, no Samurai Pizza Cats? ;p

Only remotely funny if you already know the tropes.

I dunno, I found it pretty funny when I first saw it and didn't know the tropes. But I *was* also about 11...

Looking back, the anime that sucked me in without realising were all the dubbed stuff shown the telly in the 'kids about to leave for school' timeslot.

Also there's "Hellsing Ultimate" which is much, much better due to a complete lack of Vagina Head.

Wow great list .
Need a partner in crime on your panel?

Anime for non-Anime fans is a perennial panel topic, and usually I dislike it a bit (because it is a classic token anime panel topic, often suggested by programmers who know little about anime (like me)). However, I dislike it partly because it is seldom done well, and seldom done by people really enthused about the topic, so I would love to see you do it.

I'm down as a volunteer for this panel and this list is a good start (although I would be inclined to challenge Evangelion...).

I'd probably add Last Exile, Rah Xehphon (Evangelion done right), and Aria from relatively recent releases. From older stuff I'd add the original Vampire Princess Miyu OAVs as an example of elegantly mystical horror.

Oh, and the fabulous Vision of Escaflowne. :)

With the Studio Ghibli I'd suggest removing Mononoke and replacing it with Grave of the Fireflies so that there is something by Takahata as well as something historical rather than SF.

Oh yes, anime for kids is a whole 'nother post :D

I loved the show as a kid and was still very much in my "anime sucks" stage (I somehow missed that that was what it was, same with Astro Boy and Cities of Gold)

I mentioned it! See! Doing this post reminded me to watch it, the cd you gave me is sitting looking at me reproachfully.

Well, I have two volunteers already, and from the looks of the panel voting the Miyazaki panel is looking a lot more popular so it's possible it won't happen at all (no reason not to have both of course, I think this would be good to encourage people to go that one :)) But in theory, sure.

I don't remember many such panels in the past, but I'm not very observant :) I went to an "anime without panty shots or giant robots" panel a few years ago, but it was largely populated by and aimed at anime fans.

But yes, I think this sort of panel is easy to do badly which is why I wanted a long consultation process beforehand, to make sure I wasn't letting my personal taste dominate too much.

although I would be inclined to challenge Evangelion

Oh, I'm not seriously recommending Evangelion, it's more of an anti-rec :) I probably wouldn't mention it in the panel itself.

I HATED the vampire princess Miyuu tv show but haven't watched the OAVs, and found Rah Xehphon kinda dull (and haven't seen the others you mention), but don't want to let my tastes dictate the panel too much. If you do a similar write up for them I'll add them to the post. I'm going to do another poll on whether people love/hate all the animes I have now since people have given me a bunch more suggestions.

Is "Grave of the Fireflies" the sort of thing your average swancon attendee would like? I've heard it's good, but depressing and historical. You're right that it's a contrast though.

Speaking of historicals, I'm also pondering if there should be a samurai anime in there somewhere (I find them painfully uninteresting, but I know other people like swords :))

Oh, I'm not seriously recommending Evangelion, it's more of an anti-rec :) I probably wouldn't mention it in the panel itself.

Oh good. Could be an entertaining ranty moment though. :)

If you do a similar write up for them I'll add them to the post.

Miyu OAV write up here: http://arcadiagt5.livejournal.com/16283.html

I'll also try and go through my collection and do write ups for some of the older stuff that I think would go over well.

Is "Grave of the Fireflies" the sort of thing your average swancon attendee would like?

Sometimes I'm not sure that I like it... :)

Speaking of historicals, I'm also pondering if there should be a samurai anime in there somewhere

Kamui No Ken for excessive coolness and style. Full writeup here: http://arcadiagt5.livejournal.com/14105.html
Plus possibly the Rurouni Kenshin OAVs.

I'll strongly defend the initial series of El Hazard, especially the dub which is purely hilarious whilst still managing a beautiful ending. :)

And I'll equally strongly recommend that people go no further with it...

My objections to anime generally run along slightly different lines:

1) Terrible animation. Not necessarily an objection to the art style (though that is reasonably common), more to the prevalence of crappy low-frame animation - watching two characters stand perfectly still while their mouths flap around annoys me. Obviously, this is not true of all anime - the Ghibli films are an obvious exception.

2) Terrible dialogue. Perhaps it doesn't translate well, but a lot of anime dialogue is tired, stilted and predictable, more so even than most American TV. I can't think of any examples of really great dialogue in any of the anime I've seen.

3) Terrible overuse of cliche. So much anime just reuses the same tired plots and archetypes. Again, this isn't limited to anime, but the use of 'tropes' is so entrenched that it seems to stifle creativity. Presumably this is a large part of what your list is trying to avoid (though FMA and Hellsing have strong failings in this area).

4) Terrible pacing. This is the big one. Half of your list is described as 'slow', but even fast-paced anime usually has long sequences where the pace comes to a crashing halt for some 'atmospheric' time. I'm not sure why Japanese culture is so much more accepting of long-winded plot exposition and vast amounts of silence, but it doesn't do anything for me.

If you know of anime that doesn't fit into any of these categories, I'd be interested to hear about it. :)

I hated the Escaflowne anime. The manga's much less craptastic!

I haven't read the manga, but be aware that there are at least two - one primarily shonen, one primarily shoujo. There may be others as well.

Personally I find that the Escaflowne anime is a rare beast indeed. Extremely fast paced (as a result of having 13 episodes cut due to budget cuts), well balanced between shonen/shoujo aspects, and telling a superb story.

There is some dispute about the ending but I find it entirely appropriate for a series whose underlying theme is about personal responsibility for your own actions.

I'm reading the manga that was developed at the same time as the anime, not the one that is based off of the anime.

Try Moyashimon.

It's about a guy who can see microbes (http://giapet.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/moyashimon.jpg).

1) Terrible animation.

Not a particularly convincing point to me. To use examples from elsewhere Fantastic Planet has appallingly bad animation but tells a good story. South Park is deliberately awful but is liked by a lot of people (not me but it is still a valid example). Most of Hanna Barbera's animation was awful and a lot of people still enjoy them.

2) Terrible dialogue

Scene set in a Customs Hall...
"Sightseeing?"
"No, combat."

On arrival in an alternate world and seeing something odd...

"You saw it too? I thought I had the DTs!"

Just two that sprang to my mind in seconds. :)

3) Terrible overuse of cliche

Whilst there is some truth to this, I suggest that it is a complaint that can be unfairly levelled against any media or genre that the critic doesn't like and wishes to dismiss.

The one I'm guilty of is Star Trek (big red reset switch, nothing ever happens) but as dalekboy pointed out to me recently this isn't fair, especially for some seasons of Deep Space Nine.

4) Terrible pacing.

This is a matter of taste. Personally there are times when I adore the slow, gentle pacing of things like ARIA or Haibane Renmei.

OTOH there are times when I appreciate the rollercoaster ride that is Vision of Escaflowne that just never lets up once it gets going.

As far as I know there are at least two of those as well - there were creative differences over the story that the manga should be telling that resulted in two different artists working at the same time.

That's not how I've ever heard it.

But my one has almost no shoujo elements, making it superior.

It's rather surprising to hear things like "pinko-commie" in a kids' show.

I like the shoujo elements of the anime as I think it makes for better characters but at that point we are getting into personal preferences as to how stories should be told.

ie this is the point where we politely agree to disagree. :)

Agreeing is so boring.

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