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Ethical Consumption of Woobie Villains Under Late Stage Capitalism by cephiedvariable, which stands alone pretty well but I had extra thoughts.
Something I think feminist etc media analysis really needs to address more directly is that for all that representation is important, sexist messages can be damaging etc, there isn’t a Single Correct Interpretation of any story by which all other interpretations can be judged. I don’t think it’s quite as simple as people swallowing the morality of stories uncritically, for example The Correct Interpretation of Twilight is that Edward is terrible. Off the top of my head I feel like the way it works is that the Bad Guys are always exactly as bad as the narrative says, but sometimes some of the Good Guys are bad too, for sometimes rather arbitrary reasons. Which isn’t really better.
I hadn’t thought of it this way before but it reminds me of the kind of Christian who thinks Satanists must be pro-Satan as understood by Christians, into murder and evil for it’s own sake etc. When Satanists actually have their own Satanist Bible which reinterprets events so that Satan is a decent dude who just wants what’s best for people. I’ve never quite grasped how the theology of that works, but as an ethical system it ends up being as against murder, cruelty etc as any other.
And I can’t see why we should be any more respectful of the text and perspective of Star Wars or whatever. It’s annoying when people just create and enforce a different Single Correct Interpretation, since these are generally just as bad if not worse than the more conventional Single Correct Interpretation on every level. But if someone wants to write What If Bellatrix Lestrange Is Secretly Nice fanfic then that doesn’t mean they are just too dumb to have picked up the subtle message that the Death Eaters are the bad guys, or are in favour of mass murder and fascism. I mean they might be, but chances are they, and their version of Bellatrix Lestrange, are against those things, they just felt like telling a different version of the story.
And afaict actual fascists are just as likely to identify with the heroes of these simplistically anti-fascist narratives as anyone else. It’s just that in their head, like, Death Eaters=The UN. Emotional responses to fiction are complex, even when the fiction itself is simple.
Something I think feminist etc media analysis really needs to address more directly is that for all that representation is important, sexist messages can be damaging etc, there isn’t a Single Correct Interpretation of any story by which all other interpretations can be judged. I don’t think it’s quite as simple as people swallowing the morality of stories uncritically, for example The Correct Interpretation of Twilight is that Edward is terrible. Off the top of my head I feel like the way it works is that the Bad Guys are always exactly as bad as the narrative says, but sometimes some of the Good Guys are bad too, for sometimes rather arbitrary reasons. Which isn’t really better.
I hadn’t thought of it this way before but it reminds me of the kind of Christian who thinks Satanists must be pro-Satan as understood by Christians, into murder and evil for it’s own sake etc. When Satanists actually have their own Satanist Bible which reinterprets events so that Satan is a decent dude who just wants what’s best for people. I’ve never quite grasped how the theology of that works, but as an ethical system it ends up being as against murder, cruelty etc as any other.
And I can’t see why we should be any more respectful of the text and perspective of Star Wars or whatever. It’s annoying when people just create and enforce a different Single Correct Interpretation, since these are generally just as bad if not worse than the more conventional Single Correct Interpretation on every level. But if someone wants to write What If Bellatrix Lestrange Is Secretly Nice fanfic then that doesn’t mean they are just too dumb to have picked up the subtle message that the Death Eaters are the bad guys, or are in favour of mass murder and fascism. I mean they might be, but chances are they, and their version of Bellatrix Lestrange, are against those things, they just felt like telling a different version of the story.
And afaict actual fascists are just as likely to identify with the heroes of these simplistically anti-fascist narratives as anyone else. It’s just that in their head, like, Death Eaters=The UN. Emotional responses to fiction are complex, even when the fiction itself is simple.
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Emotional responses to fiction are complex, even when the fiction itself is simple.
That's very much where I'm at with SW fandom in particular (when Star Wars is more complex and nuanced than swaths of fandom will allow actual human beings to be ... jfc) and fandom in particular.
It’s annoying when people just create and enforce a different Single Correct Interpretation, since these are generally just as bad if not worse than the more conventional Single Correct Interpretation on every level. But if someone wants to write What If Bellatrix Lestrange Is Secretly Nice fanfic then that doesn’t mean they are just too dumb to have picked up the subtle message that the Death Eaters are the bad guys
+1 on this, too. Single Correct Interpretations are always intensely irritating, all the more as they gain influence and weight until they turn into Gatekeeping 101, and they're worth resisting/qualifying/elaborating, but the idea seems so often to be that it's—the problem isn't proposing Single Correct Interpretations but proposing the "wrong" one, where "proposing" can mean everything from actually arguing for it to wish-fulfillment fic to offhand jokes.
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I'm not active in many fandoms these days, especially online, but it does feel like there is a simplification and balkanisation going on.
It suggests a level of subtlety you don't normally expect from Our Corporate Overlords, or perhaps they are just gleefully taking advantage of something that was already there.
It's not happy thoughts, anyhow.
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And afaict actual fascists are just as likely to identify with the heroes of these simplistically anti-fascist narratives as anyone else. It’s just that in their head, like, Death Eaters=The UN
Seriously though! To keep with the Star Wars example, I see so much hand-wringing about the villains being faschy or MRAs (which, again, not necessarily a spurious or bad comparison to make) but actual fascists don't like them. They don't like Anakin, they don't even really care about Palpatine beyond meme potential. Actual fascist like Han Solo, and Luke the way he was in RotJ. You might be able to tell *something* about a person's politics from their media consumption habits (I don't go near dudes who have moe avatars), but you can't tell it from whether or not they're receiving the characters in a story through the "correct" moral framework. You have to look outside the box.
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When Satanists actually have their own Satanist Bible which reinterprets events so that Satan is a decent dude who just wants what’s best for people. I’ve never quite grasped how the theology of that works, but as an ethical system it ends up being as against murder, cruelty etc as any other.
Well, actually, Satanism--
Er, uh, would you like an answer to this theological aside or is that waaaay less important than any other discussions here?
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I'm having a bit of trouble with my dual instincts of "Yeah, you can do a lot with interpretation and that's cool" with really loving redemption arcs which require villains to start out just as evil as canon paints them, so I personally cringe at interpretations of villain characters as "Oh, not actually that bad, it was all a big misunderstanding."
Same! People can write it, but I am happier if I don't have to read it :)
(and yeah, it's cool, I vaguely recall looking into Satanism and it having as coherent explanation as anything else, it just didn't click for me)
Very briefly on Satanism
In each case the practicioners had explanations as coherent as any other religion, but the details are a bit different. And yeah, the religious ones never clicked for me either even when I was more into Paganism than I was, but I'm definitely on the side of TST and their work!
Re: Very briefly on Satanism
nods
And hey, that works pretty well as a metaphor for all the different ways people can connect with villains :)
Re: Very briefly on Satanism
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I know. I appreciate seeing you continue to fight the good fight regardless :)
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Right!
(Sorry I took so long to make such a short reply, my life is a floppy person emoji)
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