Right, and now some thoughts on the actual content of Admitting Impediments: Post-WisCon Posts, Part I, or, That Post I Never Made About RaceFail '09 and other related conversations, based largely on comments I left there and on my post Two Fandoms both alike in dignity... Since her terminology means something different in the context of local fandom I'm going to use "fanfic" and "old school" instead of her "media" and "book". They're still wrong, of course, but in a different way :)
Paradoxically, I think the fact that she has a point and tries to express it in an inclusive way has helped crystalise for me some of the ways fanfic meta tends to be seriously flawed and uninclusive. Normally I just roll my eyes and go "Yeah, yeah, more smug fanfic meta" and scroll by, but I don't let myself scroll by racism meta that makes me uncomfortable, so I really poked at my reactions (I REALLY hope I haven't ended up being all white person defensive about race in this post, but am open to the possibility that I may be). This post is more about the general arguments I have seen than any one post.
I'm not going to argue that fanfic fandom doesn't deal better with race, because afaict FOC (non-white fans) think it does and their opinion is the only one that counts. And given that this is the case, I think old school fandom should try and learn from fanfic fandom's example (see bottom of post).
But I'm sick of so many conversations being framed as "Why my form of fandom is Better and the True Form Of Fandom", so that even when it's true (in at least one respect) it's hard to engage with an open mind. I wrote up my general annoyance in What annoys me about fanfic meta.
I also think it's important to distinguish "making book fandom catch up to media fandom wrt race" from "Getting more media fandom content which has nothing in particular to do with race at cons" and "making book fandom more like media fandom in general". The first is vital, the second important but not a pre-requisite to the first, and the last is unnecessary and will be fought against tooth and nail. Implying that anyone who objects to one of the last two objects to the first is unfair. Yes, I think to a certain extent the same stick-in-the-mud "Fandom is what it has always been, ie white and male and about books, and anyone who says otherwise is not really a fan and should shut up" attitude is causing all of those problems, but that doesn't mean they're equivalent.
EDIT: Reading![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
coffeeandink's Unpopular opinions on this subject crystalised something for me: The people driving anti-racism in fandom are FOC. Not white fanfic fans. Now many of those FOC are also fanfic fans, but that's not the significant factor, and acting like it is is pretty creepy. (And framing this as being All About white people's actions and feelings, which is what I was doing too, is also pretty creepy)
Also: Maybe things work differently here, but to me young, online, fanficcer are three separate things which are only loosely correlated so to frame this as a simultaneously "book vs media" AND "old vs young" AND "online vs offline" conflict is going to unfairly alienate fans who are not young AND online AND into fanfic. And I'm really not convinced fanfic fandom is the "new wave" of sf fandom. It's certainly on the rise, and I imagine will form a more major and less maligned part of sf fandom in the future, but I know a lot of young sf fans who have no particular interest in it, it would make as much sense to describe Anime as the "new wave". Old school fandom has, on average, more older fans who are set in their ways (plus many who are not), yes, but that doesn't mean it isn't growing and changing, and as someone involved in old school fandom I'd like to think there's more options to improving stuff like racism than either joining fanfic fandom or dying of old age (and I imagine the old school fandomers who don't like fanfic feel even more strongly on the subject! As some of my older friends pointed out, there's a nasty ageist subtext that pops up in these discussions)
Now these arguments are largely around American fandom which I'm not in. But people haven't been saying "This is just about American fandom", and there's lots of international aspects to this discussion eg online, Worldcon etc.
So, getting back to the original point, what do I think old school fandom can learn from fanfic fandom and in general without becoming fanfic fandom? (And I still think my opinion as a white person doesn't count for much on the subject of race, but most of the meta I've seen has been very much from a fanfic fandom perspective)
First, social justice things:
And some ways similar ideas will benefit those outside old school fandom (separated out because this is not the same as fighting racism):
What we should NOT do is dismiss this all as "Some bunch of (American) fanfic writers complaining about nothing". Because fanfic writers are fans too, and because regardless of what social group they're in, when POC complain about racism and the only people who think it's not a big deal are white people, it's time to take a good hard look at yourself. And because there are FOC in "old school" fandom (including in Australia) and always have been, and because we are human beings in an unjust world and it's the right thing to do.
(nb comments screened since I used all the spoons I might use to answer comments to this post writing it! Will get to comments eventually. I will NOT leave anything which follows my commenting rules screened, even if it says I'm an idiot or whatever, I just want to make sure I'm in a state to deal with anything problematic before other people have to)
Paradoxically, I think the fact that she has a point and tries to express it in an inclusive way has helped crystalise for me some of the ways fanfic meta tends to be seriously flawed and uninclusive. Normally I just roll my eyes and go "Yeah, yeah, more smug fanfic meta" and scroll by, but I don't let myself scroll by racism meta that makes me uncomfortable, so I really poked at my reactions (I REALLY hope I haven't ended up being all white person defensive about race in this post, but am open to the possibility that I may be). This post is more about the general arguments I have seen than any one post.
I'm not going to argue that fanfic fandom doesn't deal better with race, because afaict FOC (non-white fans) think it does and their opinion is the only one that counts. And given that this is the case, I think old school fandom should try and learn from fanfic fandom's example (see bottom of post).
But I'm sick of so many conversations being framed as "Why my form of fandom is Better and the True Form Of Fandom", so that even when it's true (in at least one respect) it's hard to engage with an open mind. I wrote up my general annoyance in What annoys me about fanfic meta.
I also think it's important to distinguish "making book fandom catch up to media fandom wrt race" from "Getting more media fandom content which has nothing in particular to do with race at cons" and "making book fandom more like media fandom in general". The first is vital, the second important but not a pre-requisite to the first, and the last is unnecessary and will be fought against tooth and nail. Implying that anyone who objects to one of the last two objects to the first is unfair. Yes, I think to a certain extent the same stick-in-the-mud "Fandom is what it has always been, ie white and male and about books, and anyone who says otherwise is not really a fan and should shut up" attitude is causing all of those problems, but that doesn't mean they're equivalent.
EDIT: Reading
coffeeandink's Unpopular opinions on this subject crystalised something for me: The people driving anti-racism in fandom are FOC. Not white fanfic fans. Now many of those FOC are also fanfic fans, but that's not the significant factor, and acting like it is is pretty creepy. (And framing this as being All About white people's actions and feelings, which is what I was doing too, is also pretty creepy)Also: Maybe things work differently here, but to me young, online, fanficcer are three separate things which are only loosely correlated so to frame this as a simultaneously "book vs media" AND "old vs young" AND "online vs offline" conflict is going to unfairly alienate fans who are not young AND online AND into fanfic. And I'm really not convinced fanfic fandom is the "new wave" of sf fandom. It's certainly on the rise, and I imagine will form a more major and less maligned part of sf fandom in the future, but I know a lot of young sf fans who have no particular interest in it, it would make as much sense to describe Anime as the "new wave". Old school fandom has, on average, more older fans who are set in their ways (plus many who are not), yes, but that doesn't mean it isn't growing and changing, and as someone involved in old school fandom I'd like to think there's more options to improving stuff like racism than either joining fanfic fandom or dying of old age (and I imagine the old school fandomers who don't like fanfic feel even more strongly on the subject! As some of my older friends pointed out, there's a nasty ageist subtext that pops up in these discussions)
Now these arguments are largely around American fandom which I'm not in. But people haven't been saying "This is just about American fandom", and there's lots of international aspects to this discussion eg online, Worldcon etc.
So, getting back to the original point, what do I think old school fandom can learn from fanfic fandom and in general without becoming fanfic fandom? (And I still think my opinion as a white person doesn't count for much on the subject of race, but most of the meta I've seen has been very much from a fanfic fandom perspective)
First, social justice things:
- Be more open in general and acknowledge that not only has fandom changed, but that parts of fandom have been excluded for years. There needs to be a multiplicity of voices in fandom: POC, women, GLBT people, non-American and non-Western people etc. See these people as Real Fans, and take their opinions on fandom as seriously as anyone else's.
- Take a good hard look at the hierarchical nature of fandom and consider how this perpetuates the broader hierarchy of the society around us. Instead of only paying attention to people with regards to this hierarchy and thus privileging rich white straight english speaking American men, the opinions of FOC should be central to discussions of race, those of women to discussions of gender etc.
- Let our squee be harshed: Acknowledge that as much as we love our tropes and traditions they are sometimes problematic, and our affection for them and desire to express ourselves doesn't negate our responsibilities as human beings.
- Accept change. Better accommodate previously underrepresented people like POC and women.
- Make the effort to fight oppression. Seek out the opinions of POC on race etc, both in panels and the running of cons. Follow their suggestions. Create safe spaces. Ask difficult questions about ourselves and the sf we love.
- Other things I've either forgotten to add or simply haven't occurred to me.
And some ways similar ideas will benefit those outside old school fandom (separated out because this is not the same as fighting racism):
- Be more open in general and acknowledge that not only has fandom changed, but that parts of fandom have been excluded for years. There needs to be a multiplicity of voices in fandom: fans of anime, fanfic, roleplaying, comics and webcomics, as well as people who interact online or in other places beyond Proper Cons. See these people as Real Fans, and take their opinions on fandom as seriously as anyone else's.
- Accept change. You personally do not have to start liking fanfic etc, but accept that other people have other tastes, and if the overall taste of fandom changes (which it has before, is now, and will again) then fandom and conventions (especially "comprehensive" ones like Wiscon or Worldcon or Natcon) need to change to respect that (luckily, by my first point, it should still make space for your tastes too, even if they end up being a minority)
What we should NOT do is dismiss this all as "Some bunch of (American) fanfic writers complaining about nothing". Because fanfic writers are fans too, and because regardless of what social group they're in, when POC complain about racism and the only people who think it's not a big deal are white people, it's time to take a good hard look at yourself. And because there are FOC in "old school" fandom (including in Australia) and always have been, and because we are human beings in an unjust world and it's the right thing to do.
(nb comments screened since I used all the spoons I might use to answer comments to this post writing it! Will get to comments eventually. I will NOT leave anything which follows my commenting rules screened, even if it says I'm an idiot or whatever, I just want to make sure I'm in a state to deal with anything problematic before other people have to)
no subject
I suspect one reason that the same conversations aren't going on in non fanfic-centric fandom is that there isn't the same infrastructure. Fanfic-centric fandom (especially slash) seems to have a very defined infrastructure, while non-fanfic based fandom doesn't (in my experience; in fact I'd never heard of the infrastructure and how disconcerting it can be for someone who's used to it to look for things outside it until a couple days ago!).
My friends who are fans and online but not interested in fanfic talk about fannish things in their own journals (often in the same posts talking about other meat life stuff) and interact with their friends directly rather than with people who share their interests through communities and who aren't meatlife friends. So the discussions that tear through fanfic-centric fandom like wildfire they may never hear about -- and if they do, they may assume it's something to do with issues *in fanfic* and as they aren't interested in fanfic, they may not pay attention.
My best friends (and Paul!) are people I've met directly or indirectly thru fandom, but I think only two were met through fanfic-centric fandom; the others were from conventions, mailing lists, and discussion groups -- and you could say all of them were indirectly through non-fanfic fandom, as it was those people who brought us first to lj where I met the other 2.
For people whose fandom isn't experienced online, I expect it's a similar issue, but even more so -- they go to conventions, local gatherings, etc., and hang out with their friends and discuss their lives, including the shows/books/movies they're fans of.
Which isn't meant to dismiss the discussions fanfic-centric fandom is having, but to explain why the same discussions may not be happening in non-fanfic-centric fandom.
I don't agree at all that fanfic-centric fandom is the new wave of fandom. Yes, it's very visible online, but again I think that comes down to having an infrastructure and a determination to be visible. But fanfic has always been there and has always been one aspect of fandom. (Best if I avoid the urge to grumble about those in fanfic-centric fandom who say things like "fandom is a female place", "fandom is about writing fanfic", and "but we're not weird like Trekkies" and other exclusionary language, I'm sure....)
I suspect there are also very strong .. hmmm... I'm going to use "cultural" ...reasons for a lot of miscommunications.
For instance, within the fanfic-centric fandom community it's common to hide your meatlife name/etc (and as zvi pointed out to me, for good reasons). In other parts of fandom (as I've experienced it) that's fairly incomprehensible (even in other internet fandom circles), and there's a tendency to discount what people say if they aren't comfortable saying them under their own name (and a tendency to regard it as troll-like behaviour).
Both cultures are valid cultures; but their intersections can be uncomfortable and lead to massive misunderstandings and anger on both sides.
(also? I'm glad you changed the descriptions, because every time I see "media fandom" used to mean "visual media" I get all "er, when did written media stop being media???" *g*)
Very cool, very thinky-inspiring post!
no subject
Yes, I think your experience of fandom was different to mine when I joined in Australia in the late 90s. I'd say we are above average for queer friendliness but that still leaves room for a lot of unfriendliness :/ We do seem pretty poly-friendly, certainly I have met more out poly relationships in fandom than I have anywhere else (I'm not sure I've met any) It was moderately male, but a lot less so than it apparently was a decade or so prior.
I'm never very good at telling how much online fannish communities I'm in which don't directly reference fanfic are "in" fanfic fandom. Is
A sidenote: "fanfic" fandom is I think a lot more fractured and variable than it can appear. I joined a Jane Austen discussion forum last night which insisted on real names, for example.
no subject
I have no idea; I'm not familiar with either.
A sidenote: "fanfic" fandom is I think a lot more fractured and variable than it can appear. I joined a Jane Austen discussion forum last night which insisted on real names, for example.
Oh, absolutely! LJ based fandom is less so than once you move off LJ, but even there if you compare, say, anime, sf&f, fantasy, gaming, and other fandoms, it can be very different. Even groups dedicated to one show can be very different.
Back when I was on a discussion list for Highlander, almost everyone used their real name. HL friends intro'd me to Buffy, and it surprised me at the Bronze (the old WB posting board at buffy.com) that people used pseudonyms; but almost everyone knew everyone else's real names, too. Some of my best friends are from there and used to come to my house to visit lots.
Then LJ is variable depending on what corner of it you're in. I have friends who use their own names and friends who use pseuds, but most of the ones who use pseuds I always assumed just did it for the fun.
Then one person explained to me not long ago why sie uses a pseud online and that it's common in slash fandom; sie also said sie gets freaked out by seeing people using icons of themselves, and I was all o.O.
I'd no clue of the issues within slash fanfic fandom. On the mailing lists and earlier people who hid who they were were called trolls and were using trying to cause problems, so I associate making up whole online personas that aren't really you with that (the only time I've hidden my real name online was when first dipping a toe into abuse survivor newsgroups in the mid 90s), so the whole idea was new and strange to me.
I still don't really understand wanting to do it, but if it makes people happy and isn't being done to hurt others, then more power to them, you know?
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I've never been that cautious about pseuds, while I'm used to being "sqbr" I am also pretty open about being "Sophie", and while I don't like my last name being too closely linked with online stuff am happy to have offline friends and family knowing about it. But I don't do anything very shocking, when I was working it wasn't anywhere too sensitive, and Australia is pretty open minded. And Jane Austen fic at least is unambiguously legal :) My main worry is being linked child porn by accident and somehow getting in trouble for it (over here the legal definition is broad and the punishments severe).
But people writing explicit gay porn who live or work in really narrow-minded/homophobic places..I can intellectually at least understand being more cautious. I have a Singaporean friend and she is REALLY careful about linking her real name and online name, her government isn't big on freedom of speech :/