And now for a change, saying what I actually think

[sqbr]

So, last week, pretty much at random, I came across a relative stranger complaining about sexual harassment. From a guy I know.

My first thought was "Wait, really?"
My second was "Actually, that is pretty consistent with what I've seen of his behaviour around women"

And I had this moment when I stopped and was struck (as I have been before) of how hypocritical it is for me to talk about standing up for what's right etc when there are so many people I'm on good terms who consistently behave in a horrible way(*) to other people (but not me) That while I may make a token bleat of complaint every now and then when people say or do objectionable things, it's always in a non-confrontational way, and I back off if they get too narky, making me in some ways more complicit with their actions than those who say nothing.

But after angsting for a bit...I got over it and moved on.

And then it happened again. Different guy. Different stranger. Different context. Same complete lack of surprise or disbelief.

Which just...argh. Enough is enough.

So, I don't know what I'm going to do about it. For a start I'll try harder to learn not to collapse in a heap when in a confrontational situation, but I think I need to suck it up and learn to let people dislike me.

I'm not going to say who either of them are because
(a) That would be wanky and cowardly, unless I was willing to confront them about it in private and let them defend themselves, which I'm not (yeah, ok, so I am still pretty cowardly)
EDIT:Also, please no speculation in the comments for similar reasons.
(b) I like the idea of letting anyone who reads this and thinks I might be talking about them stew(**), and making everyone else think about the issue in general rather than focussing on individual cases (especially given the fact that you may be quite happy to confront those particular guys, but have other people whose crap you put up with)

So if you are reading this, and you know your behaviour makes women uncomfortable, and you do it anyway? And you can think of several women who might rant to strangers about the way you harassed them? Stop it.

There's no "Or I'll.." after that. Stop it because it's wrong.

And if you know guys like that, or other people who act in ways which make those around them miserable, and you put up with it...why do you put up with it?

And if you don't, got any tips on how to deal with the fallout? :)

EDIT: A few things:

1) Something people have pointed out which I ignored was the fact that speaking up can get you in a mess of trouble, not just from the guy being a bit rude, but from all his friends if noone agrees with your interpretation, and maybe even physical danger etc depending on context. All I'm saying is that even when it is safe and we know other people agree with us, we still say nothing, and that is bad. But other times? Saying nothing may be your best bet.
2)I'm not saying we should 100% ostracise everyone who does an individual horrible thing. Everyone screws up sometimes.. That said, just because someone is mostly nice doesn't mean we should let individual bad actions slide, even if we don't like the person making the accusation etc.
3)I'm not talking about guys who make everyone around them miserable by accident. I do think they need to be confronted, but in a different way. Though as strangedave points out, a lot of skeezy guys are in denial about just how unpleasant they are to be around, so the distinction isn't very clear.

Also, in my experience fandom/unisfa's overall approach is to ostracise/pick on people who do socially unacceptable things (the same way they would treat someone who was just really annoying) which
(a) Doesn't always make it clear to the person why they're being excluded, and easily blurs into cliqueyness (ie standards are higher/lower based on the person's popularity and likability)
(b) Doesn't do much good if the person brazenly ignores the social pressure, since people often don't actively stand up to individual actions.

In my opinion people need to stop the vague teasing etc, and decide as a group that certain kinds of behaviour aren't acceptable in a given context (the unisfa room, swancon, someone's house or lj etc), and if people persist then kick them out unless/until they're willing to stop.

Second cowardly act: I've been feeling intermittently bad at answering email etc lately, so I may be crap at comments for a bit. But I needed to get this off my chest before I lost my nerve. Also, it hopefully goes without saying that I may not be my usual patient self with people who start ...crap in the comments.

*hopes I am not setting myself for a buncha flames*

(*)Sexual harassment is totally not the only issue where this comes up, mind you, it's just the one that was really driven home to me recently
(**)Though I know that if I was a guy I'd be the sort to be automatically paranoid that this was somehow about me, even though I wouldn't fit the description I just gave. So to such guys I say: sorry for the uncertainty, hope it's not too stressful, it's ok, I don't mean you :)

Comments

It would be nice if enough was enough, but it never will be.

[greteldragon.livejournal.com]

Now hopefully I won't get too offtrack with what I try and say here, my trouble is my viewpoint here is incredibly harsh (for obvious reasons). Also incredibly badly written as usual.

The line between someone doing this kinda of thing by accident/ignorance and the ones that delibrately do it is incredibly blurry. This is mostly because the ones that don't do it by accident always have (and do use) the "I didn't mean anything by it" "it was an accident" excuse. I've usually found that the skeezy ones are the ones that pretend they did nothing and hide behind someone else when pulled up on it though.

Its cute that you mention ostracizing, because in my experience when I know someone is doing something skeezy whether to me or to other people and I suspect I look like a target my instincts are very much to be incredibly horrible to them, in order to keep them the fuck away from me. Why not confront them? Every time I have (both for myself and for others) I've had them brush me off or pretend they did nothing, hide or move away. And lie about doing so. So if you aren't getting group support over something, getting them ostracized even if they act clueless is a fairly tempting option to feel comfortable again.

Anyway what I'm trying to get at with the next point, is why you shouldn't confront people. I have a temper and I'm aware I cause arguments and a lot of people don't actually like me (which is fair enough in most cases, I don't have a lot of patience with various people for various reasons and I should work on that). However the thing about skeezy guys is they still have friends, and the will/do have girlfriends/boyfriends. Saying someones boyfriend groped you or x? Good reasons for the partner not to like you after that. That extends out to groups. You comment that someone is sexually harassing you the immediate reaction is blame. You comment x is being sexually harassed, the immediate reaction is 'nah that guys a good bloke, she's just out to get him, or had it coming etc...' or my favourite 'why is she putting herself in that situation then? She should quit her job' * If you then have a partner (which you do) that hate can extend to them and before you know it you've got that horrible thing where you can't hang around with your partners friends and your partner is given that horrible choice between girlfriend or friends. Horrible horrible flow on effects that can cut you out of an otherwise good group of friends

Being horrible to someone randomly can also give other people the impression that you are a bad human being, so then you are being horrible and gossiping if you want those people to understand you aren't just being a bitch. Which by definition, makes you more bitchier.

So yeah, confronting people is messy I recommend against it. Mostly it didn't work so good for me, though I still have failed to come up with a better solution. Talking openly as people suggested only seems to make people more angry the harasser to feel victimised (because he didn't do anything!) and get further in denial and people judging the actual victim.

Also I like the idea of every guy currently being paranoid about this post speaking up, because the odds are those are the actual cool ones. The ones that actually make women uncomfortable. They've already got their excuse organized. (ITS ALL MISCOMMUNICATION** I TELLS YOU)

Despite all this, I still like having male friends :P

* Gross simplification of the many varied things that people say, that usually boil down to this

** To pick an excuse I've found particularly skeezy

Re: It would be nice if enough was enough, but it never will be.

[alias_sqbr]

I have a headache so may have to reply again when my head is less stupid, but I wanted to say some of this now.

The line between someone doing this kinda of thing by accident/ignorance and the ones that delibrately do it is incredibly blurry. This is mostly because the ones that don't do it by accident always have (and do use) the "I didn't mean anything by it" "it was an accident" excuse.

Very good point.

And you're right, my post assumes that everyone acknowledges that this behaviour is bad and just does nothing about it. I guess this comes from my own experience, since I've been in that situation a lot (it's very much what happened when I was harrassed in unisfa).

But when noone but you even acknowledges there is a problem..that sucks, and it is hard. The way people blame the victim in this situation is disgusting (I say having just read a chapter in a feminist memoir about the days when the police assumed all rape victims were liars)

And I totally understand not being confrontational in those circumstances. What I guess you can do, though, is always be willing to give at least private support to someone you see being mistreated. Hmm.

And yes, despite all this, I'm not quite ready to become a lesbian seperatist either :)

Re: It would be nice if enough was enough, but it never will be.

[greteldragon.livejournal.com]

I like how I wrote seven paragraphs there when really you only needed one to really get to my point.

I should learn to blabber less :P

blabber performs a vital cognitive function!

[alias_sqbr]

Have you seen how long my post is now? I can only be succinct because I got all my blabber out already :)

Re: It would be nice if enough was enough, but it never will be.

[nico-wolfwood.livejournal.com]

having just read a chapter in a feminist memoir about the days when the police assumed all rape victims were liars

Those days? Are still happening: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/28/AR2008052803583.html?wpisrc=newsletter

Re: It would be nice if enough was enough, but it never will be.

[alias_sqbr]

Jesus.

*flails in the face of the crapness of everything*

Re: It would be nice if enough was enough, but it never will be.

[anxiolytic.livejournal.com]

you should join the angry old man club, you just need to provide your own cane.

Re: It would be nice if enough was enough, but it never will be.

[greteldragon.livejournal.com]

I would but then I'd beat one of those fuckers to death with the cane, when they couldn't keep their hands to themselves.

On the upside, your mum would enjoy a beating with a cane. WHEN I SLEEP WITH HER :P