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Short version for Penny: The spikification of Magnificent Bastards sucks. Also, David Tennant is swoony.
The problem with lovable bastards is that very few authors seem to be able to sustain them: they either decide they're mostly a bastard and have the character become increasingly unsympathetic until they get their comeuppance, or they decide they're mostly lovable, and the character becomes increasingly sympathetic until they're just a lovable rogue(*). In the latter case (especially with american stories, with their clear cut good guy/bad guy dichotomy) we're often expected to gloss over (or just forget) all the horrible things they did and actually take the bastards side against anyone who criticises him, including past victims. Not only is this annoying and unfair, it destroys the ambiguity that made the character interesting in the first place.
I just finished watching "Blackpool", a six part BBC drama which I really enjoyed. Here's the opening number, basically (in a fairly blatant plagiarism of/homage to Dennis Potter) it mixes straight drama with singing and dancing, which sounds silly but imo worked really well(**). All the characters lie and do morally dubious things, hurting themselves and each other in the process, yet it's mostly fairly upbeat and doesn't moralise (or punish wrongdoing beyond it's logical consequences)...except for the end.
***WARNING: Fairly minor spoilers for the final episode follow***
Blackpool didn't do too badly (and I still enjoyed it overall).
See, the main character is a bastard. He constantly cheats on his wife, manipulates, charms and bullies people into doing what he wants, and causes no end of pain and suffering in his wake. He is also, when the mood takes him, affectionate, generous and charmingly sweet. All in all a lovable bastard you can't help but like a bit.
Except for the last episode, where he was way too nice. I can believe him being in a good hearted mood (it's only set over one day), but in previous episodes, even at his nicest he was still a blunt tactless prat who said things in a deliberately confronting way. For the first time it felt like the author was telling us what to think rather than just showing, and I didn't agree with what he was saying.
Some other lovable bastards I think the writers got too attached to and thus ruined are Spike from Buffy (who went from psychopathic bad guy to sensitive woobie who needed to be protected from the big meanies who distrusted him for no reason) and Logan from Veronica Mars (who went from sociopathic bad guy to The Perfect (woobie) Boyfriend whose mean girlfriend distrusted him for no reason). These were the result of multiple writers over several seasons, and I think can partly be put down to a problem with fans falling in love with the characters (as played by very pretty young men and dating the female main character) and influencing the writers.
You see this effect a LOT in fan fiction. From my fairly minimal exposure to SGA fanficcers have done this to Rodney McKay, who from what I've seen is a nasty selfish elitist in canon, but in fanfiction is a slightly prickly but deep down sensitive and caring woobie. (But I may be wrong, I haven't seen enough of the show to really say) See also DracoInLeatherPants.
Anyway, would people agree? Any other examples? (Preferably not from fanfiction, just because there's so many :)) I'm trying to think of a lovable bastard turned straight forward bad-guy but none are coming to mind. I'm sure I've seen it a bunch of times though.
(*) The third option is to have them find redemption in death. A plot choice I hate so much it deserves it's own rant :/
(**)Also David Tennant has a fairly major part with his real, and totally adorable, scottish accent. *fangirls girlishly*
The problem with lovable bastards is that very few authors seem to be able to sustain them: they either decide they're mostly a bastard and have the character become increasingly unsympathetic until they get their comeuppance, or they decide they're mostly lovable, and the character becomes increasingly sympathetic until they're just a lovable rogue(*). In the latter case (especially with american stories, with their clear cut good guy/bad guy dichotomy) we're often expected to gloss over (or just forget) all the horrible things they did and actually take the bastards side against anyone who criticises him, including past victims. Not only is this annoying and unfair, it destroys the ambiguity that made the character interesting in the first place.
I just finished watching "Blackpool", a six part BBC drama which I really enjoyed. Here's the opening number, basically (in a fairly blatant plagiarism of/homage to Dennis Potter) it mixes straight drama with singing and dancing, which sounds silly but imo worked really well(**). All the characters lie and do morally dubious things, hurting themselves and each other in the process, yet it's mostly fairly upbeat and doesn't moralise (or punish wrongdoing beyond it's logical consequences)...except for the end.
***WARNING: Fairly minor spoilers for the final episode follow***
Blackpool didn't do too badly (and I still enjoyed it overall).
See, the main character is a bastard. He constantly cheats on his wife, manipulates, charms and bullies people into doing what he wants, and causes no end of pain and suffering in his wake. He is also, when the mood takes him, affectionate, generous and charmingly sweet. All in all a lovable bastard you can't help but like a bit.
Except for the last episode, where he was way too nice. I can believe him being in a good hearted mood (it's only set over one day), but in previous episodes, even at his nicest he was still a blunt tactless prat who said things in a deliberately confronting way. For the first time it felt like the author was telling us what to think rather than just showing, and I didn't agree with what he was saying.
Some other lovable bastards I think the writers got too attached to and thus ruined are Spike from Buffy (who went from psychopathic bad guy to sensitive woobie who needed to be protected from the big meanies who distrusted him for no reason) and Logan from Veronica Mars (who went from sociopathic bad guy to The Perfect (woobie) Boyfriend whose mean girlfriend distrusted him for no reason). These were the result of multiple writers over several seasons, and I think can partly be put down to a problem with fans falling in love with the characters (as played by very pretty young men and dating the female main character) and influencing the writers.
You see this effect a LOT in fan fiction. From my fairly minimal exposure to SGA fanficcers have done this to Rodney McKay, who from what I've seen is a nasty selfish elitist in canon, but in fanfiction is a slightly prickly but deep down sensitive and caring woobie. (But I may be wrong, I haven't seen enough of the show to really say) See also DracoInLeatherPants.
Anyway, would people agree? Any other examples? (Preferably not from fanfiction, just because there's so many :)) I'm trying to think of a lovable bastard turned straight forward bad-guy but none are coming to mind. I'm sure I've seen it a bunch of times though.
(*) The third option is to have them find redemption in death. A plot choice I hate so much it deserves it's own rant :/
(**)Also David Tennant has a fairly major part with his real, and totally adorable, scottish accent. *fangirls girlishly*
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*sigh* Mmm, David Tennant. I think I shall add "Casanova" to my Quickflix queue...