A change from politics...

[sqbr]

I've been pondering doing one of these for a while, but wasn't sure I'd get the wording right. Since it worked so well on his lj, I've decided to completely steal the language of angriest's recent post instead(*).

1. Tell me your religious beliefs. It can be as simple as "I am an X" or it can be a lengthy paragraph if you like. If you feel your religious and/or spiritual beliefs are private, either don't reply or leave a note saying as much.
2. If you want to reply to something someone else has written, feel free - particularly if you want to ask them a question about the religion you've always wanted to ask but have never been able to, or felt comfortable enough to.
3. This is one of the biggies: if someone asks you a question and you don't feel comfortable answering it, do not feel obliged to answer. Either don't reply at all, or drop a quick reply saying "I don't really want to answer that".
4. Religious intolerance will not be tolerated. I'm aiming this particularly at the aggressive atheists who seem to get their kicks scoring points, but the rule applies in any direction.

I know a lot of you are on both flists, I decided to do it now while it's still fresh in your heads. You are quite welcome to repeat/post a link to your comment over there! And yes fred_mouse I know you were also planning on stealing his idea, but, well, there's no reason it can't be stolen multiple times :D

(*)And yes, I checked it was ok. Don't want to be sued for copyright violation by the big mean famous writer :)

Comments

[stephiepenguin.livejournal.com]

I really actively enjoy discussing theology, but I very (very very very) rarely talk about my own beliefs.

Just to let you know. :o)

[emma-in-oz.livejournal.com]

This is such a tiny thing, but I do feel guilty when I take advantage of the Christmas postage reduction to send out my cards. Why on earth does the Government sponsor cheap communication for Christians. Not that I don't take advantage of it.

[alias_sqbr]

You can haz feminist intellectual fangirls?

Sounds to me like they're fangirls of Sophia. I don't begrudge her them, I do have hundreds of philosophies to call my own :)

[alias_sqbr]

At least in America they have Thanksgiving, and a large enough jewish population celebrating Hanukkah(*), that "The Holiday season" actually makes some sense. Though I get the feeling it means people have trouble getting their head around any religions having major holidays outside that period or none within it.

That said: I'm not christian, and still sometimes send christmas cards :)

(*)Although apparently this isn't actually that big of a festival compared to some of the others at different times of year

[col-ki.livejournal.com]

I think it's interesting the way you talk about the "separation of Church and State" when what you really mean is that you want politicians to act as if they don't have religious beliefs.

Last I checked, aligning your moral system with a particular religion didn't make you a member of the clergy, and the last Bishop who tried to influence an Australian politician got slapped pretty hard by Church *and* State.

Social groups and religions are allowed to have a say in public policy. A separation of Church and State has been lost when judges consult religious texts instead of laws, not when politicians vote to ban gay marriage and go to church on Sundays.

For the record, athiest. Or, as the Dalai Lama says, "compassion is my true religion".

[col-ki.livejournal.com]

I don't see your logic. You think sending christmas cards is about being christian? Last time I checked, they mostly have Santa on them.

[alias_sqbr]

Noted. And it's cool, I certainly have plenty of stuff I don't like discussing.

Instead, have an adorable story about a penguin: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1084037/Lonesome-penguin-cheered-new-friend--stuffed-toy.html

[alias_sqbr]

Thankyou.

[emma-in-oz.livejournal.com]

I don't see your logic. You think sending christmas cards is about being christian? Last time I checked, they mostly have Santa on them.

No, I think the public holidays and subsidies are for Christmas, which for me is actually a celebration of my faith (though my Christmas cards are just catch ups). It means one faith gets it made easy to celebrate.

[alias_sqbr]

I think mandragora2003 has a similar catholic-themed-not-catholicism. I have a very protestant themed atheism, I guess, though it's not quite the same thing.

I believe that theism derives from an human tendency to anthropomophise a mind-bogglingly huge and complex universe into something more cognitively manageable. In this, I suppose, I have a lot in common with panthiests

Same.

Re: I'm really out of it, so hopefully this makes sense.

[alias_sqbr]

telling us science says there is no god, always did seem pretty petty and missing the point to me. Religion is more than about whether or not the is a god, I think.

Absolutely. And really, all science can do is comment on individual specific religious claims, and normally the less important ones (the age of the earth isn't actually the core tenet of christianity etc)

Also, I'm not sure anyone actually uses science as a religion. People may try to act in a rational way, but logic still has to work from some sort of arbitrary principles, and you have to choose those somehow. I used to hang out with lots of atheists, and there were all sorts of different ethical/political etc belief systems, about the only thing they had in common was a tendency not to be super conservative about stuff like sex.

There are certain atheistic dogmas which claim to be the One True Atheism, but they're all diametrically opposed to each other :) My grandma is a communist, and I've encountered lots of very obnoxious capitalist libertarians, so I understand the "If that's atheism count me out" reaction. I used to refuse to call myself an atheist for that reason, but eventually decided I wasn't going to let them tell me what "atheist" meant. (I mean if it doesn't mean you fair enough, but I don't like the way the word gets coopted by the extremists)

I also have an intense dislike of people saying things like relgion has never done any good for the world

Me also. You can argue over whether or not it's done more harm than good (personally I think it's too hard to disentangle it from culture to say) but it's definitely done some good.

[lauredhel.livejournal.com]

I think it's interesting the way you talk about the "separation of Church and State" when what you really mean is that you want politicians to act as if they don't have religious beliefs.

No, that's not what I mean.

A separation of Church and State has been lost when judges consult religious texts instead of laws, not when politicians vote to ban gay marriage and go to church on Sundays.

One of these things is not like the other one.

[bunny-m.livejournal.com]

OK, I'm definitely going to have to take the time to read through this and add a hopefully more coherent and shorter comment than I did on angriest's LJ.

I'd love to do it now, but it is late, I have to be at work in too damn soon, and I sadly can no longer access LJ at my place of employment. *sadbunny*

Reply to this in case I forget to follow through on this promise.

[terrycat.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about this for a while....
I've said I was Roman Catholic, but that isn't so much my beliefs as what I'm labeled.
I believe that on the one hand, gods exist. Even if they only exist in our minds, they still exist and can affect us.
On the other hand, religion is not that important. I'm curious about what comes next, but religion isn't going to tell me. And if the only reason you're being good is the hope of a reward or fear of punishment when you die, then you aren't really being good anyway.
So the way I see it is believe what you want, but try not to let that get in the way of doing good.

[col-ki.livejournal.com]

Well then, please accept my apologies for dressing you up in straw!

Could you elaborate on what you mean when you say that we are failing to separate Church and State?

[alias_sqbr]

*blinks*

I have a feeling I'm going to feel dumb if I ask what you're talking about :)

[alias_sqbr]

It's easy not to realise how christian centric the christmas "season" is if you're not a member of a religion whose primary holidays are at a different time, and have to try to schedule work/family etc around them with no help (or understanding) from the government or surrounding culture. I didn't realise until I read some discussion by jews and muslims.

[col-ki.livejournal.com]

I can see that. It must be annoying being forced to spend nearly 2 weeks of your annual leave when everyone else is on holiday and travel is expensive, when you'd really rather take them at some other time when your family and friends are involved in your cultural / religious festival.

I still don't think christmas cards are about christianity, though. Like Easter eggs and Valentine's presents.

[penchaft.livejournal.com]

Well, Sophia is actually a Greek name (omg we're name origin twins), so...

Re: I'm really out of it, so hopefully this makes sense.

[greteldragon.livejournal.com]

Hm. I was more getting at people that go, "I believe in science", where normally you would say "I believe in *whatever religion here". Or the assumption that because of science there is no longer any need for religion. People do treat it as a replacement.

The trouble is I think, religion tends to be embedded pretty strongly into culture (even when individuals are athiest, the community may remain Christian say). Religion is certainly a great way to build up social capital in communities, which will factor into culture.

[alias_sqbr]

Oh, I see your point. Yes, I think sending christmas cards is a fairly secular act for most people (though one that only makes sense in a semi-christian context), I think it was the fact that they're subsidised that bothers emma_in_oz.

Though I was under the impression all cards were subsidised, just because they're a nice small standard size and weight. *shrugs*

Re: I'm really out of it, so hopefully this makes sense.

[alias_sqbr]

Oh yes, sorry, there was supposed to be a sentence after "'m not sure anyone actually uses science as a religion" that said "I know some people say they do, but they're just being annoying" :) Because ok, yes, religion did also used to do science's job of explaining how things work (angels moving the planets etc) but VERY few people use religion for that any more, they use it for the stuff science can't help with (ethics, meaning etc) As with all groups of people, a great many atheists are full of crap :/

I agree that religion is often very closely entwined with culture and society and may be necessary for it to function well (I'm not sure it is, but I'm not sure it isn't), which is one reason I'm not an evangelical atheist.

[alias_sqbr]

Ahh...right :)

Re: I'm really out of it, so hopefully this makes sense.

[greteldragon.livejournal.com]

*grins*

I don't know about religion being the only way for societies to function well, but if I was less lazy I'm sure I could dig up the essays I read that tell you it is certainly a way for societies to function well, in terms of creating and strengthening communities anyway.

[alias_sqbr]

So I've tried explaining my religious beliefs a couple of times (Two good examples being here and here) and as you can see am pretty much incapable of not going totally tl;dr, but briefly (ha ha):

Strictly speaking I'm an agnostic, since there are certain religious/supernatural etc things I think could be true (though I tend to think they're not) But most of the time when people say "Are you an atheist?" they mean "Are you certain the christian god doesn't exist?" to which I can say "Yes, definitely", so I tend to say I'm an atheist.

That said I think there's a lot going on the world people don't understand, and see no reason why it's fair for me to assume that I'm 100% lucid and all the religious people are deluded/fooling themselves etc, so think it's not impossible that there's something those people are connecting with I'm just not getting.