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EDIT: So Cam is annoyed because I misinterpreted what he meant. So, let's imagine a hypothetical person asked: "I do action X. Does that make me a sexist?"
A metaphor to explain why that's not a useful question:
Suppose you're having a conversation about whether or not it's ok to cut people off in traffic. Suppose someone says:
"I cut someone off in traffic today, does that make me a bad person?"
Either you say "no", and they say "Oh good, so it's ok to cut people off in traffic."
Or you say "yes" and they say "But I can't be a bad person! I give money to charity!"
It's not about whether or not you're a bad person, it's about whether or cutting people off in traffic is an bad act. If it is, and you do it all the time, then maybe you are a bad person, but you can be an overall good person and cut people off from time to time. Everyone does both good and bad things.
Similarly, "Am I sexist for doing this?" isn't a very useful question. We are all sexist(*), in the sense of having sexist biases and being complicit in a sexist society. So the point is to figure out which acts are particularly sexist, and avoid doing them, not to figure out which people are sexist and punish them.
That said, you can draw a line in the sand and decide that anyone who is, overall, more sexist than that is a "sexist person", and some acts are so horribly sexist that you might decide that doing them means you've crossed that line. But most sexist acts (like most unethical acts) are, by themselves, pretty minor in the scheme of things, and doing them doesn't make you inherently worse than anyone else. Though that doesn't mean you don't have s responsibility to figure out the negative consequences of your acts and try to mitigate them.
I'm going to keep this relatively short so I won't go into all the complications of doing harmful things by mistake etc. I just liked the metaphor and wanted to share it :)
Relating to the original version of the post: I will say: I think liking a sexist show isn't a sexist act anyway. You can't help what you like!
(*)By my definition, and definitions vary
A metaphor to explain why that's not a useful question:
Suppose you're having a conversation about whether or not it's ok to cut people off in traffic. Suppose someone says:
"I cut someone off in traffic today, does that make me a bad person?"
Either you say "no", and they say "Oh good, so it's ok to cut people off in traffic."
Or you say "yes" and they say "But I can't be a bad person! I give money to charity!"
It's not about whether or not you're a bad person, it's about whether or cutting people off in traffic is an bad act. If it is, and you do it all the time, then maybe you are a bad person, but you can be an overall good person and cut people off from time to time. Everyone does both good and bad things.
Similarly, "Am I sexist for doing this?" isn't a very useful question. We are all sexist(*), in the sense of having sexist biases and being complicit in a sexist society. So the point is to figure out which acts are particularly sexist, and avoid doing them, not to figure out which people are sexist and punish them.
That said, you can draw a line in the sand and decide that anyone who is, overall, more sexist than that is a "sexist person", and some acts are so horribly sexist that you might decide that doing them means you've crossed that line. But most sexist acts (like most unethical acts) are, by themselves, pretty minor in the scheme of things, and doing them doesn't make you inherently worse than anyone else. Though that doesn't mean you don't have s responsibility to figure out the negative consequences of your acts and try to mitigate them.
I'm going to keep this relatively short so I won't go into all the complications of doing harmful things by mistake etc. I just liked the metaphor and wanted to share it :)
Relating to the original version of the post: I will say: I think liking a sexist show isn't a sexist act anyway. You can't help what you like!
(*)By my definition, and definitions vary
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Very wise words indeed.
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I think liking Show X isn't a sexist act anyway. You can't help what you like!
The other reason it's silly to be like "is it wrong to like a sexist show?" is that it's kind of like a fish asking "is it wrong for me to breathe this water?" There's not really another option-- like you said, it's a sexist society that we live in, and the result is that just about every show fails on some level, either actively or passively. If you like a tv show, then you probably like a sexist show-- period. I know I do! (And even if someone could find a show that was awesomely sexism-free, it might be racially problematic or promote sterotypes about religion or sexual identity, or any number of things.)
But, I mean, am I going to stop watching Hollywood musicals of the 1930s and 40s because they are sometimes crazily sexist and racist? No, because I like awesome dance numbers... I think the best answer to the question is "no, it's not wrong to like a sexist show as long as (1) on some level you're aware of the problematic elements, so you're not just passively accepting and internalizing them, and (2) you don't try to attack or shut down other people who might want to talk about it, just because they're criticising something you like."
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[contradictory userpic is contradictory]
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And I think that thing about drawing lines--like, it's important not to judge someone who won't watch a show or read a book because it crosses their particular line. Like, if someone couldn't watch Singin' in the Rain because in "Good Mornin'" there's that one HULA OUT OF NOWHERE, and that is more appropriation than they want to deal with, I shouldn't try to go, "But it's charming and funny and comparatively not that racist!" So if you like a show you know is problematic, it's totally fine! Just realize that someone else might be all, "I just can't watch Show X because of how they treat women."
Oh, and own the problematic bits. Because yeah.
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Though sometimes realising about how sexist/racist etc a show is does put me off it. But thinking about this stuff means I get less of those nasty vague pit-of-my-stomach "this bugs me and I don't know why" feelings so I count it as a win :)
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It really is just another way of phrasing "is this sexist?" for most people. Which is one way to figure out which acts are sexist ("the point" as you say): ask someone else. Although I agree with the post on the whole, I think you're splitting a rather long hair. Question what is and isn't sexist (or otherwise a tendency worth changing) is pretty crucial.
I just defended Slumdog Millionaire to someone who said "isn't this just another bourgeois poverty-is-noble everyday-Joe-white-knight rescues damaged-but-still-hot-chick sex fantasy?" ... I really enjoyed that film, and felt his summary rather elided the good bits. Now I find myself wondering whether I applied an adequately critical mind to it.
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Ah. "Am I sexist?" is not a question in boolean logic, but a question in fuzzy logic.
That is, "Am I sexist?" is less like "Am I pregnant?" (which can only be answered yes/no) and more like "Am I tall?" (which is a degree question, with the yes/no answer useful only in cases of extreme degree).
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In some cases, yes. In which case I think it's still imprecise language, but most language is so it's not a big deal :)
But sometimes people really do use the "Either I'm not sexist and this behaviour is ok, or I am sexist.. but I can't be because some of my best friends are girls (or whatever). So the behaviour must be ok" argument.
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If we didn't actually list this particular trap -- I don't think we did, because we were talking more about construction of identity -- it's one more for the list.
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In fuzzy logics, the exclusive-or drops away, so you can be both not-sexist (one of my best friends is a girl) and sexist.
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I was wondering, because it seemed like a round-about way of getting past something that didn't actually seem like a valid construction to begin with.
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And (keeping in mind I'm very tired) is it such a bad thing to be a little bit sexist/racist/blahist? I mean, if you're aware of it, or the fact that you worry about it at all, I would regard as better than people who think they're not at all biased. Being completely neutral in the real world is an absurd premise.
Liking a show that someone decibed as sexist, to my mind, is more like "I once drank tequila, does that make me Mexican?"
I'm too tired to explain that metaphor, so I hope it makes sense.
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It all goes back to the fact that "discrimination" means "choice" when you get to that level. In some ways the issue is more that people are unthinking, than that people have preferences, in my opinion.
There needs to be a distinction drawn between striving for a society in which individuals will actually believe that all people are fundamentally equal*, and striving for a society in which all individuals willingly submit to a law that treats everyone as equally worthy, and carefully avoid abusing status, circumstance to undermine that equality.
* Equality of opportunity? Equality of outcome? Nah. Something more like "equal in value and dignity, and equally worthy of the trust of the citizenry" to my mind.
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Absolutely, that's the point: criticising an act for being sexist (or whatever) isn't about judging people, it's about judging actions. Bringing up "But I'm a good person" is a distraction.
And (keeping in mind I'm very tired) is it such a bad thing to be a little bit sexist/racist/blahist
It's a little bit bad. Being very sexist is very bad. And so on :)
"I once drank tequila, does that make me Mexican?"
*is perhaps a little too literal-minded about your metaphor*
The problem with that is that drinking a LOT of Tequila ALL THE TIME doesn't make you Mexican either. Tequila drinking is at best loosely correlated with Mexican-ness.
But doing lots of bad/sexist things all the time does kind of make you a bad person/sexist.
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Very wise words indeed.
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I think liking Show X isn't a sexist act anyway. You can't help what you like!
The other reason it's silly to be like "is it wrong to like a sexist show?" is that it's kind of like a fish asking "is it wrong for me to breathe this water?" There's not really another option-- like you said, it's a sexist society that we live in, and the result is that just about every show fails on some level, either actively or passively. If you like a tv show, then you probably like a sexist show-- period. I know I do! (And even if someone could find a show that was awesomely sexism-free, it might be racially problematic or promote sterotypes about religion or sexual identity, or any number of things.)
But, I mean, am I going to stop watching Hollywood musicals of the 1930s and 40s because they are sometimes crazily sexist and racist? No, because I like awesome dance numbers... I think the best answer to the question is "no, it's not wrong to like a sexist show as long as (1) on some level you're aware of the problematic elements, so you're not just passively accepting and internalizing them, and (2) you don't try to attack or shut down other people who might want to talk about it, just because they're criticising something you like."
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[contradictory userpic is contradictory]
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And I think that thing about drawing lines--like, it's important not to judge someone who won't watch a show or read a book because it crosses their particular line. Like, if someone couldn't watch Singin' in the Rain because in "Good Mornin'" there's that one HULA OUT OF NOWHERE, and that is more appropriation than they want to deal with, I shouldn't try to go, "But it's charming and funny and comparatively not that racist!" So if you like a show you know is problematic, it's totally fine! Just realize that someone else might be all, "I just can't watch Show X because of how they treat women."
Oh, and own the problematic bits. Because yeah.
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Though sometimes realising about how sexist/racist etc a show is does put me off it. But thinking about this stuff means I get less of those nasty vague pit-of-my-stomach "this bugs me and I don't know why" feelings so I count it as a win :)
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It really is just another way of phrasing "is this sexist?" for most people. Which is one way to figure out which acts are sexist ("the point" as you say): ask someone else. Although I agree with the post on the whole, I think you're splitting a rather long hair. Question what is and isn't sexist (or otherwise a tendency worth changing) is pretty crucial.
I just defended Slumdog Millionaire to someone who said "isn't this just another bourgeois poverty-is-noble everyday-Joe-white-knight rescues damaged-but-still-hot-chick sex fantasy?" ... I really enjoyed that film, and felt his summary rather elided the good bits. Now I find myself wondering whether I applied an adequately critical mind to it.
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Ah. "Am I sexist?" is not a question in boolean logic, but a question in fuzzy logic.
That is, "Am I sexist?" is less like "Am I pregnant?" (which can only be answered yes/no) and more like "Am I tall?" (which is a degree question, with the yes/no answer useful only in cases of extreme degree).
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In some cases, yes. In which case I think it's still imprecise language, but most language is so it's not a big deal :)
But sometimes people really do use the "Either I'm not sexist and this behaviour is ok, or I am sexist.. but I can't be because some of my best friends are girls (or whatever). So the behaviour must be ok" argument.
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If we didn't actually list this particular trap -- I don't think we did, because we were talking more about construction of identity -- it's one more for the list.
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In fuzzy logics, the exclusive-or drops away, so you can be both not-sexist (one of my best friends is a girl) and sexist.
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I was wondering, because it seemed like a round-about way of getting past something that didn't actually seem like a valid construction to begin with.
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And (keeping in mind I'm very tired) is it such a bad thing to be a little bit sexist/racist/blahist? I mean, if you're aware of it, or the fact that you worry about it at all, I would regard as better than people who think they're not at all biased. Being completely neutral in the real world is an absurd premise.
Liking a show that someone decibed as sexist, to my mind, is more like "I once drank tequila, does that make me Mexican?"
I'm too tired to explain that metaphor, so I hope it makes sense.
no subject
It all goes back to the fact that "discrimination" means "choice" when you get to that level. In some ways the issue is more that people are unthinking, than that people have preferences, in my opinion.
There needs to be a distinction drawn between striving for a society in which individuals will actually believe that all people are fundamentally equal*, and striving for a society in which all individuals willingly submit to a law that treats everyone as equally worthy, and carefully avoid abusing status, circumstance to undermine that equality.
* Equality of opportunity? Equality of outcome? Nah. Something more like "equal in value and dignity, and equally worthy of the trust of the citizenry" to my mind.
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Absolutely, that's the point: criticising an act for being sexist (or whatever) isn't about judging people, it's about judging actions. Bringing up "But I'm a good person" is a distraction.
And (keeping in mind I'm very tired) is it such a bad thing to be a little bit sexist/racist/blahist
It's a little bit bad. Being very sexist is very bad. And so on :)
"I once drank tequila, does that make me Mexican?"
*is perhaps a little too literal-minded about your metaphor*
The problem with that is that drinking a LOT of Tequila ALL THE TIME doesn't make you Mexican either. Tequila drinking is at best loosely correlated with Mexican-ness.
But doing lots of bad/sexist things all the time does kind of make you a bad person/sexist.