So what should I say tommorrow?

[sqbr]

I like wishing people a merry Christmas. But I know that as a Christian-encultured atheist I'm a lot more comfortable with Christmas as a secular holiday than people from other cultural or religious backgrounds.

I'm not sure the American "Happy Holidays" is an improvement: it assumes that everyone has a holiday around this time, which is fine if you're jewish(*) or (most types of?) pagan but not so much if you're Buddhist or Muslim etc, as are a great many of the people I know who are members of a religion other than Christianity (eg it's reasonableness as a greeting assumes the sort of religious demographics you get in America but not here(**)). And saying it tommorrow feels like "I'm wishing you a merry Christmas but giving it a veneer of inclusiveness."

Worse along these lines is "Happy Christmas/Hanukkah/Kwanzaa/whatever", imo.

I like "A merry Christmas to those who celebrate it and a generally happy day to everyone else" and similar.

What are other people's thoughts?

(*)Though apparently Hanukkah isn't that big of a deal compared to some of the other holidays?
(**)Plus Americans have Thanksgiving. We all have New Years I guess, but I don't think people mean "Happy new year" when they say "Happy Holidays".

Comments

[samvara]

Happy Non-Denominational Festivity Day!

[sqbr]

:)

[rainbow]

oh, this is fascinating. i'd never thought of the intersection of local demographics and holiday greetings.

* no, chanukah is not a major holiday.

** i can't speak for anyone else, but if i said "happy holidays" i would consider it to include wishes for a happy new year, too -- but then i'm not christian at all; i'm more of a secular pagan and celebrate solstice. i do sometimes wish a merry christmas or happy chanukah to the people who celebrate it, though.

i'm trying to remember back when i was in jr high and high school in the 70s in calif. there was an increased focus on the separation of church and state around then in the area i lived in (san francisco bay area, near berkeley), with increased pressure on schools to be inclusive of students who weren't christian and increased pressure on municipalities to have "holiday displays" on govt property instead of christmas specific ones (and oh, did that cause some ruckuses when suddenly places that had had creche displays for decades had bells and holly and etc instead).

i remember we had holiday decorations rather than xmas decorations at the schools by the time i was in high school, and it was really drummed into us that not everyone celebrates christmas and that we should include everyone in our holiday celebrations.

i suspect it's different for people who grew up after "happy holidays" was already common.

[sqbr]

*nods*

It's something I've been thinking about for a while, since the US attitude is superficially similar to ours but the underlying dynamics are different.

[sami]

See, I think "Merry Christmas" is appropriate, but then, if someone replied with: "... and a joyful solstice festival to you!" I'd say, "Thank you!"

Because my idea of cultural inclusiveness doesn't mean removing things, it means adding them. I will wish people a merry Christmas because Christmas is a part of my culture as well as my religion, and I WANT Christmas to stay a part of my culture.

I would also, however, like my culture to start marking Diwali and Eid, to note Passover and Yom Kippur, to hold everyone's celebrations as important. (I remain ambivalent about Kwanzaa, because it's so artificial, and I don't know anyone who actually celebrates it, and it's very, very specifically American.)

Because yes, everyone's equally miserable if we suck all the joy out of life, but this is NOT AN IMPROVEMENT.

[sqbr]

The problem with that argument is it's so convenient for us as people who do celebrate Christmas, you know? I'm not 100% sure that everyone who doesn't celebrate Christmas would find the experience quite so positive (I mean, they might, but I don't think we're in a position to judge)

[sami]

Except that observing Christmas is, in fact, something that is very strong in our culture, including secular culture, and I don't think that it would be even vaguely approaching fair to make that into a Bad Thing.

It's one of those areas where I recognise that it is privilege, of a sort, for something that is a part of my personal cultural background to be part of mainstream culture* but the way that privilege needs to be dismantled is to extend it to everyone, not remove it from some.

And I tend to think that anyone who thinks that widespread celebrations of Eid and Diwali would somehow be a negative thing can suck it up. These are joyful and wonderful things, and wanting to limit the amount of joy and wonderment in the world MAKES YOU A BAD PERSON.

* I say "of a sort" because all of the ways in which Christmas is embedded in our culture tend to lead directly to Christmas being one of the most miserable times of the year for me, despite it being a joyful point in the religious calendar of my own faith; I find myself wishing that Christmas existed culturally on a level equivalent to Michaelmas, because then I would not, in fact, spend so much time every Christmas persuading myself not to commit suicide.

I'm not sure this is clear :/

[sqbr]

I have been reliably informed that there are particular ways of celebrating Christmas which do exclude/oppress etc people, and since I am not excluded/oppressed by it don't think I'm in a position to say which bits of it are secular and awesome and which bits of it aren't. From the looks of things, saying "Merry Christmas" is, at least in Australia, one of the ok bits. But since I'm not one of the group being hegemonised(*) I don't think it's safe to trust my own judgement or that of anyone else who does celebrate Christmas (since we can't know what it's like to hear "Merry Christmas" when you don't celebrate it). So I asked those who don't.

(*)Is that a word?

[jesse_the_k]

I either say "thanks" with an extra twinkle or "happy new year" or a generic "best wishes!" which covers prettyuch any situation. The part of the Xmas spirit I can get behind is the friendly boost. If you make the appropriate smile/twinkle/head tilt/voice raise, they'll parse you has having said whatever they wished to hear.

[sqbr]

Yes, the spirit behind it is definitely the most important thing.

[elaran]

"Happy Christmas/Hanukkah/Kwanzaa/whatever" doesn't strike me as worse in my head.

also i don't find the christmas-y decorations etc offensive? or have a problem with it? because living in a country that is predominantly caucasian and with the majority of people who celebrate it, if not in the religious spirit then as a cultural thing or something, i am not surprised that i have been listening to carols a lot or seeing tinsel and decorations everywhere.

having a problem with this/complaining about this strikes me like someone going to india and then complaining about holi or people getting upset about how ramadan is strictly observed in U.A.E or something which just seems.... rude. i don't know.

[sqbr]

Fair enough.

I have no idea what it's like to live in a country where my culture isn't the default(*), so I feel like I should double check from time to time to make sure I'm not accidentally stomping on people.

(*)I don't count a few hours wandering around Japan between flights :)

[ex_pippin880]

You can accept presents but don't feel obligated to give them! It's like the best hax holiday for you ever.

[sqbr]

I felt a bit hax when I got a red packet of money at nico_wolfwood's wedding :)

[elaran]

also this is what i would have posted in response to your mention of the christmas-bus thing i guess. like i read that and my reaction was: personally i like it or don't mind it. i expect it too and just, as one of the major holiday celebrated here, i am... surprised? at people who have an issue with it and see it as being subjected to it. well ok, you are i guess. but again, i liken it to what i stated in the last part of previous comment where it's like going to another country with a another culture and complaining about one of their major religious events/holidays etc.

blergh, i am mainly hoping this comes out right.

[sqbr]

I've been thinking about it, and my theory is this: Christmas in Australia really is pretty secular, so non-Christians don't generally feel oppressed by it. American Christians tend to make more of a big deal about the Christ in CHRISTmas, and thus American non-Christians don't buy it when people are all "Oh, but it's secular, we're totally including you".

[polyserena]

I think you're more worried about it than most of us are. If you're just giving general wishes like on your LJ or something, there's nothing wrong with "merry christmas". People who celebrate it will be happy and those of us who don't know it's not aimed at us anyway. Personally I'd prefer that to the generally happy day thing because it's not like you're going to wish people a generally happy day every day. It feels like it's being way too self-conscious about the whole thing. Like "well I want to wish people merry christmas but gee I don't want those people who don't celebrate it to feel left out so I'd better include them somehow". If we don't observe christmas then we're already "left out" of everything christmas-related and it doesn't bother us. Not our festival. If you want to wish people who celebrate it merry christmas then go ahead, it's got nothing to do with us. There's no need to wish us anything except happy new year or whatever.

That said, it's still not a big deal and not really worth worrying about. Everyone I know who doesn't celebrate christmas takes any kind of well-wish in the spirit that it's meant. The only one that does bug me is the combined one you mentioned because AFAIK (bad jew alert) channukah is already over, so there's no point in wishing me a happy one. It just shows people want to be inclusive without actually bothering to find out anything about what they're trying to include. Also yeah, it's not even nearly an equivalent. The best equivalent in my family at least is pesach and even that doesn't involve presents.

[sqbr]

*nods*

Just thought it was worth checking.

And yes: saying "Happy Channukah" on Christmas day seems a pretty weak veneer of inclusivity.

[tree]

i tend to think 'happy holidays' is a fairly good compromise because even those of us who don't celebrate generally have time off work. so you're wishing us a happy holiday in that sense. which is perfectly acceptable to me. :)

[sqbr]

Heh. Yeah, someone who replied on the feed(*) suggested "Happy federally mandated public holiday" :)

(*)For which I told them off

[tree]

there is also the awesome jay smooth's take on it. :D

[sqbr]

Haha. Yeah, I am definitely going to have to add "Bah Humbug" as an option when I'm trying to be inclusive :)

[firecat]

This year I mostly haven't been initiating season-specific wishes. I offer the same ones I do at other times -- "have a nice day" and so forth. But if someone says "Merry Christmas" to me I say it back to them, and so forth.

I sometimes initiate "Happy New Year" between 12/25 and the first week of January.

[sqbr]

*ponders*

I think I only say Happy New Year on New Years Eve/Day. And now I'm overthinking it and don't know if I would naturally say it to people now or not :)