Apparently they don't need ramps in the afterlife

[sqbr]

Just had some Jehovah's Witnesses come to the door and since I was bored I had a talk with them (the way I see it we both get a chance to refine our arguments with a polite determined advocate for the other team).

They were reasonable enough as evangelical doorknockers go, though they refused to believe me when I said the "We only use 10% of our brains" myth is bunk. (I mean, they refused to believe me about various creationist etc things too, but I was expecting that)

But when we got to death (eg "What will happen to my dead grandma?" and didn't I appreciate them latching onto that) I asked what would happen with my Grandad: will he be resurrected with his Alzheimers? If not, what happens to the person he is now, who is quite distinct from the person he used to be? "Well, he'll be resurrected as he was before he got the memory loss, because God will make him perfect."

When I asked about people who have "disabilities" like deafness that they see an inherent part of themselves the response was that they were wrong, because who wouldn't prefer to be able to hear? "Well then I would like to be taller. Would God make me taller?" No: that's a difference, not disability. I tried explaining my opinion that there's no neat dividing line between innocuous/positive difference and imperfection/disability but they had to go (yes, I won the game of chicken :D)

Some googling found me:

• a JW site How Disabilities Will End which tends to match the impression I got from the doorknockers.
  
• Living With a Learning Disability gives some to my mind relatively sensible advice for parents of children with learning difficulties, and I don't have too much of a problem with people following a theology with Unfortunate Implications if they act ok in practice.
  
• This post from a disabled people who met some really annoying Witnesses implies they don't always do that though.
  

Anyway, not meaning to pick on Jehovah's Witnesses in particular, I just found it interesting. It's funny how much disability related stuff I never noticed before (for certain definitions of "funny")

(nb pleas try and avoid unnecessary ranting about he Evils of Religion. I'd like this to be a conversation which reasonable Witnesses could engage with if any come along. And yes they do exist :P)

Comments

[firecat]

I asked what would happen with my Grandad: will he be resurrected with his Alzheimers? If not, what happens to the person he is now, who is quite distinct from the person he used to be? "Well, he'll be resurrected as he was before he got the memory loss, because God will make him perfect."

What about the person he was when he was 10?

[tree]

there are quite a few proponents of deaf culture who'd be very upset about that, since they don't consider their deafness a disability at all.

[furikku.livejournal.com]

Technically, I am supposed to believe in bodily resurrection upon the Second Coming, as a Lutheran.

In actuality, I am more inclined to believe in some kind of spiritual Thing like Oneness With God.

Though for complete accuracy, I just believe that there's some kind of afterlife and don't think about it too much because there's obv. no way to know what happens then.

To wrangle on the terms of bodily resurrection, I can't say I'd agree with the idea of God slapping things onto people that they didn't have before (such as hearing for the hearing impaired). I'd say it'd be more likely that the Kingdom Come would just be a setting where disabilities are dispensed with on account of God is omnipotent and can do anything, including making a society that works on the social disability model.

Xtianity of most denominations would work better if they'd focus more on helping people according to the individual situation, rather than the weird conformity issues they got goin' on now.

[attentive]

I suspect asking the details of the "how" of Heaven's perfect happiness and grace necessitates the position of an unbeliever. If Heaven could be formulated then we could encompass the mind of God.

The believer's contrapositive: a person cannot encompass the mind of God, therefore an expression of perfect existence in Heaven cannot be formulated.

If it weren't, Heaven could be built on earth, permitting us to do without God entirely.

So in a way, I don't think it is a fair question to ask a believer, since you are in effect starting the argument of belief having presupposed its conclusion.

[ex_peasant441]

Maybe the difference is between those who see their disability as a disadvantage and those who don't. Heaven is after all supposed to get it right so if an individual prefers their disability then that is right for them and they surely will be allowed to keep it. Plus one would hope there was the opportunity to try out new things - give hearing a go for a while and then return to being deaf if you don't like it, etc.

Heaven should be the ultimate example of localism in fact - one heaven per person, constantly changing to meet that person's needs. That is part of what I understand by the 'many rooms'.

there's no neat dividing line between innocuous/positive difference and imperfection/disability
True. But I think there are still clear sets that most of us can perceive, even if they have fuzzy boundaries. You would be really pushed to find a hearing person who truly believed that deafness was not an imperfection and that the deaf person would not be happier if it could be cured - for most of us it is beyond comprehension why anyone would consider deafness acceptable if there was a choice. The same for most disabilities. We can I think admire those who have achieved self belief and acceptance without disregarding the basic understanding that disability means imperfection - a person in whom something is lacking compared to the norm.