Violence outside the system
There's been some very interesting discussion of violence in fiction recently, in Militarism, pacifism, fandom ![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
naraht has some links and very interesting thoughts about pacifism.
My issue I guess with these posts is with the dichotomy between pro-military and pacifist. Because I love stories about violence, but my gut sympathies are very anti-military and while this is sometimes problematic, I think it's not inherently self-contradictory. This came up in the comments tonaraht's post but I'd like to poke at it some more.
I had some stuff here about why my gut reactions tend to be different but it got tl;dr. In short: one of my grandads may have been a WWII pilot, but the other met his wife at a communist party strike rally where they got shot at by police. Also I'm Australian, and was brought up to be leftwing and proud of my Eastern European roots during the Cold War. My natural sympathies do not lie with the (American) military, even if I do like and respect many individual soldiers and enjoy NCIS sometimes.
Why I like violence in fiction when my personal politics are fairly pacifistic…I don't know!
Also, one can have violent fiction where the protagonists aren't violent, or where they are but we're not supposed to like it. I'm currently trying to write a non-violent(ish) character in a fic for Dragon Age (a very violent setting!) and it's…interesting. I've been diverting all the violence onto the villains :D There's also explicitly and specifically anti-military "war is hell" violent war stories eg "The Forever War" by Joe Haldeman.
Some examples of types of sympathetically violent characters who are not uncritically engaged with the military-industrial complex:
Are these characters problematic in their own ways? Absolutely. But not in quite the same way as is being criticised in these posts.
Most significantly, they are still killing people (unless they're not :)), and that always has ethical concerns and messes people up regardless of context. Also, often misfit anti-military types are totally fine with the "good" military, eg the brownshirts in Firefly, the US military in Farscape.
I was going to ponder the issues around writing these characters some more but..eh. I've run out of inspiration for the topic.
nb I'm not meaning to criticise or even really engage with the people talking about the good and bad parts of pro-military stories. They make some good points, I just felt there was some aspects of violent fiction they weren't covering.
No linking on metafandom please, I'm fine with random strangers engaging but I don't have the energy for a gazillion comments.
naraht has some links and very interesting thoughts about pacifism.My issue I guess with these posts is with the dichotomy between pro-military and pacifist. Because I love stories about violence, but my gut sympathies are very anti-military and while this is sometimes problematic, I think it's not inherently self-contradictory. This came up in the comments to
naraht's post but I'd like to poke at it some more. I had some stuff here about why my gut reactions tend to be different but it got tl;dr. In short: one of my grandads may have been a WWII pilot, but the other met his wife at a communist party strike rally where they got shot at by police. Also I'm Australian, and was brought up to be leftwing and proud of my Eastern European roots during the Cold War. My natural sympathies do not lie with the (American) military, even if I do like and respect many individual soldiers and enjoy NCIS sometimes.
Why I like violence in fiction when my personal politics are fairly pacifistic…I don't know!
Also, one can have violent fiction where the protagonists aren't violent, or where they are but we're not supposed to like it. I'm currently trying to write a non-violent(ish) character in a fic for Dragon Age (a very violent setting!) and it's…interesting. I've been diverting all the violence onto the villains :D There's also explicitly and specifically anti-military "war is hell" violent war stories eg "The Forever War" by Joe Haldeman.
Some examples of types of sympathetically violent characters who are not uncritically engaged with the military-industrial complex:
- Rag-tag misfits against (or trying to avoid) an evil empire eg Star Wars (though of course they're trying to create their own replacement State), Farscape
- Rag-tag misfits fighting a supernatural threat eg Buffy, Shawn of the Dead
- Member of oppressed group joins military mission for the greater good but is still in conflict with the injustices of the system eg most origins in Dragon Age:Origins except Human Noble (at least how I play them), some "woman crossdresses to join sexist military" stories, especially "Monstrous Regiment" by Terry Pratchett
- Contractor/mercenary etc, semi complicit with the system but very morally ambiguous and conflicted, eg lots of cyberpunk, Culture novels by Iain M Banks
- Lone vigilantes. I tend not to like these myself since they trend towards fascistic ideals, as if the main issue with the police is that they have too much due process and community consultation. I know there's some less problematic examples though none are coming to mind.
- Characters who are violent but don't kill anyone (or not anyone human), like most children's superheroes (eg Kim Possible) and Buffy.
- Sympathetic villains, so that we understand their violence but do not condone it eg Catwoman in "Batman Returns" or (to some extent) Rorschach in "Watchmen" by Alan Moore.
- It's the kind of setting where it's easy to just end up in lots of random fights eg The Wild West
- Others I'm forgetting…
Are these characters problematic in their own ways? Absolutely. But not in quite the same way as is being criticised in these posts.
Most significantly, they are still killing people (unless they're not :)), and that always has ethical concerns and messes people up regardless of context. Also, often misfit anti-military types are totally fine with the "good" military, eg the brownshirts in Firefly, the US military in Farscape.
I was going to ponder the issues around writing these characters some more but..eh. I've run out of inspiration for the topic.
nb I'm not meaning to criticise or even really engage with the people talking about the good and bad parts of pro-military stories. They make some good points, I just felt there was some aspects of violent fiction they weren't covering.
No linking on metafandom please, I'm fine with random strangers engaging but I don't have the energy for a gazillion comments.