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Discussing problematic fanworks that aren't all bad
EDIT: I have realised that this post, while it may have some merit, is mostly wrongheaded. I'm going to edit it to try and knock it into some sort of sense but keep in mind it used to be different. (Yes this erases my mistake, but it also means it's readable as a coherent argument)
I'm taking a break from responding to comments or editing the post etc while I think about the points people are making but I am increasingly uncomfortable with what I was saying. Ack.
So! Sailorptah made a comment on racism 101 proposing lots of small scale discussions of problematic fic rather than just these occasional big blow-ups about HORRIBLY problematic fic, and I was thinking that was maybe a good idea.
Or would it just cause horrible drama and pain and be a waste of energy? Note (I assumed this went without saying but I guess it doesn't): I'm not saying other people should host these discussions. I'm saying I should (and other people who agree with me) Also despite the example I'm linking to being about racism I would personally want to concentrate on the stuff that affects me personally eg class and disability.
What I am not calling for is less criticism of these really terrible fanworks written by really aggressively prejudiced authors. I'm saying we need more criticism of somewhat terrible fanworks by only slightly prejudiced authors as well, but that in those cases the criticisms shouldn't be so harsh or on such a large scale (especially since we're all at least slightly prejudiced in one way or another).
Unfortunately, there really isn't much of a culture in fanworks fandom of public criticism, so that when people do criticise fanworks publicly it tends to be the ones they hate so much they don't care if the author gets pissy at them. From what I've seen, there's very little crit lying in the continuum between private-ish communication saying "This is awesome though there is one thing…" and sometimes public stuff saying "THIS IS THE WORST FIC EVER".
Because we see any public criticism as a terrible insult, we're only comfortable making public criticisms of people we don't mind insulting eg authors who've really pissed us off, and the criticisms are thus very negative. And this reinforces the attitude that publicly criticising someone is always an insult.
We can and do of course privately email people and have discussions etc, and on a good day the end result is that that author has learned better and maybe fixed their story. But unless they then talk about it publicly (which can look a bit self promoting) noone else will know. And sometimes a reader just isn't up to putting their heart on the line for such a small possible gain when there's a fair chance the author will ignore them or freak out.
And of course all of this general reticence to be critical gets magnified by the huge drama around accusing someone of being racist or ableist etc. It doesn't help that there is a tendency, amongst the people being accused but also some of the accusers, of seeing it all in terms of who you are rather than what you did, equating "this one aspect of your story was *-ist" with "Your story is *-ist and bad" with "YOU are *-ist and bad". (nb that doesn't mean we shouldn't tell people "Your story is *-ist and bad" or "YOU are *-ist and bad" when it does apply. It just doesn't always)
I've hit this myself: I read a fic a while ago which upset me with it's ableism, and I wanted to talk both about the fic itself and the wider pattern it's a part of, but it's quite popular and in a lot of ways very good and I saw no way to talk about it publicly without the large possibility of hurting the author's feelings and/or having her or her fans getting narky. So I made a locked post and felt grumpy.
As sailor_ptah pointed out, general discussions of "what not to do" are all well and good, but they really benefit from examples.
It's difficult with recs, too, if you want to say "This was overall great, but I was a bit uncomfortable with…" (and if the recs I'd seen for that story had said something like that I would have been much less blindsided by the ableism and might have been able to enjoy the story or make an informed decision not to read it. Though I'm not sure the reccers noticed)
This goes double if you want to rec something for it's overall good portrayal of gender/race/sexuality etc but also poke at some of the stuff it got wrong or you're not sure of.
So! Do people agree with my take on things? Would it cause too much drama? Should I just suck it up and post about this stuff?
If nothing else: I hereby open myself up for being an Example To Others. I'd rather not be sporked or whatever, but if, say, someone wants to write a post about the heteronormativity of Disney fic and wants to use my rather heteronormative "Enchanted" story as an example then I won't Freak Out.
If public posting is too fraught, perhaps a locked community for people who are on board with the concept? Maybe they already exist and I've just never been invited :)
And maybe I'll make that post about class in "Written by the Victors"...
I'm taking a break from responding to comments or editing the post etc while I think about the points people are making but I am increasingly uncomfortable with what I was saying. Ack.
So! Sailorptah made a comment on racism 101 proposing lots of small scale discussions of problematic fic rather than just these occasional big blow-ups about HORRIBLY problematic fic, and I was thinking that was maybe a good idea.
Or would it just cause horrible drama and pain and be a waste of energy? Note (I assumed this went without saying but I guess it doesn't): I'm not saying other people should host these discussions. I'm saying I should (and other people who agree with me) Also despite the example I'm linking to being about racism I would personally want to concentrate on the stuff that affects me personally eg class and disability.
What I am not calling for is less criticism of these really terrible fanworks written by really aggressively prejudiced authors. I'm saying we need more criticism of somewhat terrible fanworks by only slightly prejudiced authors as well, but that in those cases the criticisms shouldn't be so harsh or on such a large scale (especially since we're all at least slightly prejudiced in one way or another).
Unfortunately, there really isn't much of a culture in fanworks fandom of public criticism, so that when people do criticise fanworks publicly it tends to be the ones they hate so much they don't care if the author gets pissy at them. From what I've seen, there's very little crit lying in the continuum between private-ish communication saying "This is awesome though there is one thing…" and sometimes public stuff saying "THIS IS THE WORST FIC EVER".
Because we see any public criticism as a terrible insult, we're only comfortable making public criticisms of people we don't mind insulting eg authors who've really pissed us off, and the criticisms are thus very negative. And this reinforces the attitude that publicly criticising someone is always an insult.
We can and do of course privately email people and have discussions etc, and on a good day the end result is that that author has learned better and maybe fixed their story. But unless they then talk about it publicly (which can look a bit self promoting) noone else will know. And sometimes a reader just isn't up to putting their heart on the line for such a small possible gain when there's a fair chance the author will ignore them or freak out.
And of course all of this general reticence to be critical gets magnified by the huge drama around accusing someone of being racist or ableist etc. It doesn't help that there is a tendency, amongst the people being accused but also some of the accusers, of seeing it all in terms of who you are rather than what you did, equating "this one aspect of your story was *-ist" with "Your story is *-ist and bad" with "YOU are *-ist and bad". (nb that doesn't mean we shouldn't tell people "Your story is *-ist and bad" or "YOU are *-ist and bad" when it does apply. It just doesn't always)
I've hit this myself: I read a fic a while ago which upset me with it's ableism, and I wanted to talk both about the fic itself and the wider pattern it's a part of, but it's quite popular and in a lot of ways very good and I saw no way to talk about it publicly without the large possibility of hurting the author's feelings and/or having her or her fans getting narky. So I made a locked post and felt grumpy.
As sailor_ptah pointed out, general discussions of "what not to do" are all well and good, but they really benefit from examples.
It's difficult with recs, too, if you want to say "This was overall great, but I was a bit uncomfortable with…" (and if the recs I'd seen for that story had said something like that I would have been much less blindsided by the ableism and might have been able to enjoy the story or make an informed decision not to read it. Though I'm not sure the reccers noticed)
This goes double if you want to rec something for it's overall good portrayal of gender/race/sexuality etc but also poke at some of the stuff it got wrong or you're not sure of.
So! Do people agree with my take on things? Would it cause too much drama? Should I just suck it up and post about this stuff?
If nothing else: I hereby open myself up for being an Example To Others. I'd rather not be sporked or whatever, but if, say, someone wants to write a post about the heteronormativity of Disney fic and wants to use my rather heteronormative "Enchanted" story as an example then I won't Freak Out.
If public posting is too fraught, perhaps a locked community for people who are on board with the concept? Maybe they already exist and I've just never been invited :)
no subject
But bringing it up again, I'm reminded of Forks. Which exemplifies the conclusion you're coming to about limits.
I can understand thinking dialogue is a very good thing especially when it results in learning moments. And that you think continued dialogue can only help more. But the dialogue isn't new. There are books, studies, essays, taped lectures etc that people can search out if they want to know more - or share if they want to share more. And not just about race, but other issues as well. The resources are out there.
Awareness doesn't have to be spoonfed in order for it to stick. And it will always be frustrating if one ends up thinking 'if only they knew more! they just don't have the knowledge!' than to admit many don't want the knowledge and it wouldn't matter how much an individual put themselves out on the front line to 'host' said conversations.
So again, limits; making sure one is not losing one's sense of self by doing more, as if one's own singular effort will be the tipping point, if only one gave more (was more willing to give up that last spoon to some 'greater cause').
no subject
And it will always be frustrating if one ends up thinking 'if only they knew more! they just don't have the knowledge!' than to admit many don't want the knowledge and it wouldn't matter how much an individual put themselves out on the front line to 'host' said conversations.
This is definitely something I have trouble with. I really like explaining things to people (had my health not interfered I'd likely be a maths lecturer), and have had some really positive experiences explaining social justice stuff to others. But I've also had some very bad ones, and it's always very draining (and thus I really appreciate you spending your own limited forks on me!). I think this conversation has helped me realise that I need to give up on aiming my posts at The Entire World because there's just too many people in that world who will suck me dry.