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Skittering off on my own chaotic orbit again
There's been a lot of discussion recently about Atheism+ as a better alternative to the existing sexist and generally bigoted Atheist community.
I've been reading with interest. Cam was all "pfft, it's just Humanism", the two counterargument I've seen seem to boil down to
(a) Humanism may be pro-equality on paper, but the Humanist community does a pretty bad job in practice.
(b)Not all atheists want to be humanists. For a start, Humanism tends not to be sufficiently anti-religion for anti-religious atheists.
Now (a) is a good argument for me not getting involved in humanism. Alas, (b) is a good argument for me not getting involved in Atheism+, since I am not anti-religion, and find broad strokes anti-religious argument irritating.
In the comments to one of these posts I saw people talking about how alienating they found the post The New Atheism +, the main response to which seemed to be "But if you're against bigotry why do you feel alienated?" And I have to say I found it pretty alienating myself and not because I am pro bigotry.
I really dislike the framing of there being Good People and Irrational Dead Weight. In general I am very uncomfortable with the way Irrational is used as the worst possible insult amongst atheists, even if it is at least being more accurately applied by including sexism etc now.
I mean... Our compassion entails we will and must always be the enemies of the uncompassionate. When for me compassion means trying not to think of people as enemies at all. Sure, some people are so totally opposed to what I stand for that I am unlikely to ever find compromise with them, but they are far outnumbered by the people I currently oppose on on or more issues but would like to think could be my allies one day.
The cynical part of me thinks this kind of rhetoric appeals to male feminists (or white anti racists etc) because then they can draw a bright clear line between themselves and the Bad Guys. And if you disagree then clearly you are PRO SEXISM. Then when they are called out for their own sexism (and they will be eventually) they often get all huffy because zomg they're not one of THEM.
(nb this is me slowly crawling back to sentience after SUCH a stressful few weeks, including a tumnmy bug, cold, and my cat being temporarily BURIED UNDER THE FLOORBOARDS. So this post may not be entirely coherent)
I've been reading with interest. Cam was all "pfft, it's just Humanism", the two counterargument I've seen seem to boil down to
(a) Humanism may be pro-equality on paper, but the Humanist community does a pretty bad job in practice.
(b)Not all atheists want to be humanists. For a start, Humanism tends not to be sufficiently anti-religion for anti-religious atheists.
Now (a) is a good argument for me not getting involved in humanism. Alas, (b) is a good argument for me not getting involved in Atheism+, since I am not anti-religion, and find broad strokes anti-religious argument irritating.
In the comments to one of these posts I saw people talking about how alienating they found the post The New Atheism +, the main response to which seemed to be "But if you're against bigotry why do you feel alienated?" And I have to say I found it pretty alienating myself and not because I am pro bigotry.
I really dislike the framing of there being Good People and Irrational Dead Weight. In general I am very uncomfortable with the way Irrational is used as the worst possible insult amongst atheists, even if it is at least being more accurately applied by including sexism etc now.
I mean... Our compassion entails we will and must always be the enemies of the uncompassionate. When for me compassion means trying not to think of people as enemies at all. Sure, some people are so totally opposed to what I stand for that I am unlikely to ever find compromise with them, but they are far outnumbered by the people I currently oppose on on or more issues but would like to think could be my allies one day.
The cynical part of me thinks this kind of rhetoric appeals to male feminists (or white anti racists etc) because then they can draw a bright clear line between themselves and the Bad Guys. And if you disagree then clearly you are PRO SEXISM. Then when they are called out for their own sexism (and they will be eventually) they often get all huffy because zomg they're not one of THEM.
(nb this is me slowly crawling back to sentience after SUCH a stressful few weeks, including a tumnmy bug, cold, and my cat being temporarily BURIED UNDER THE FLOORBOARDS. So this post may not be entirely coherent)
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I read up on this, because I'm kind of sympathetic? But then I found this statement: I do not think it is in our interests any longer to cooperate in silence with irrational people, when it is irrationality that is the fundamental root cause of all human evil.
Um. No. Just no. People are irrational. It is not evil to be irrational; it is human. And sometimes evil is very, very rational. This strikes me as fundamentally stupid and illogical. It's an entire movement being predicated on the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy.
I will remain a small-a atheist and small-s skeptic.
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So on one side, I'm really glad that there's a community of activists who want to pull together atheism and social justice, to look at social justice issues as being a piece of secularism. And I think it's good for atheists in general that there is a group of activists who are talking specifically about these things and they have a name. But I'm not interested in joining or declaring my fealty, and anyone who says "you're with us or against us" gets my stink-eye.
I think if I were more active in the atheist movement/blogosphere I'd align myself with the movement despite some of the assholes in charge, but I sort of feel that way about atheism generally. ;)
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And I think it's good for atheists in general that there is a group of activists who are talking specifically about these things and they have a name. But I'm not interested in joining or declaring my fealty, and anyone who says "you're with us or against us" gets my stink-eye.
*nods*
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*Arggh!!* Nightmare territory... and tummy bug and a cold?!!
In light of all that, I think this is very coherent...
*sends you virtual hugs and gentle recovery foods of your choice*
*muses* have I put you on my "Alternate Ultimate Reality" filter (Was paganism/polytheism, is now atheism)?
The main problem I have with mainstream atheism is how it dismisses religion as utterly useless and dismisses religiously-minded people as foolish and deluded, and the reason for everything bad that happens in the world.
I mean, I am a writer of poetry and fantasy. I'm the last person who would argue that we have to get rid of all make-believe. But at the same time, I understand that my private make-believe should never be used to justify laws that impact the lives of people I've never met.
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Absolutely, it's incredibly frustrating. I've seen religion be a massively positive thing for lots of people, even if it wasn't for me.
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I...don't think atheism is intrinsically anti-religion? Atheists are simply more certain of the non-existence of deities than agnostics (who are technically a subset of atheists)--this doesn't imply anti-religion. Some atheists are anti-religion, and others could not care less.
Personally, I am largely indifferent to religion on a spiritual level, intellectually interested in it as anthropology, and a firm believer that religion does not excuse amoral, unethical behavior or protect people from the consequences of it (I'm not going to shrug and go "Oh, it's a religious belief, so I must respect it!" if it is a belief I would not respect if an atheist voiced it).
People who think we should strive for perfect rationality--that it's even POSSIBLE--make me eyeroll, though.
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People who think we should strive for perfect rationality--that it's even POSSIBLE--make me eyeroll, though.
Me too.
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Personally, I'd rather talk about bugs and SF novels and whatnot.
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