Blah Werewolves

[sqbr]

I like romance novels. I like fantasy (more than non-speculative fiction, at least). But somehow the combination of the two is always GODAWFUL. Like, every single supernatural romance has the protagonist being a Special Angsty Snowflake. All other women are soft weak victims while she is tough and powerful, but also vulnerable. She tries dating nice guys but they can't handle her Power, she needs an even more powerful man, one who is SUPER manly and strong and arrogant and probably despises all other women as much as the narrative.

Blech. I find arrogance and misogyny super unattractive, even in my escapism. Not to mention giant men bulging with muscles.

"Bitten" by Kelley Armstrong came strongly recced, but I had a bad feeling from her being The Only Female Werewolf. Sure enough, they see all other women but her as only useful for meaningless sex and babies (there are no gay or asexual werewolves, natch) Eventually I had to check to see if she gets back together with her smug stalkery ex AND SHE DOES. Of course, he's the most obnoxious and unpleasant man in the story, he must be the romantic lead.

It's pretty well written and I like the main female character (for a start, she doesn't hate other women, woo!), but hits too many bad buttons for me. Maybe I'll skip to the end and see if I like the feel of it.

Then maybe I'll reread my Marjorie Liu. She actually has some VARIETY in her manly supernatural men. And then I will sigh and wish for f/f space opera romance.

Comments

[velithya]

I've read at least one of those books and it was okay but didn't really grab me.

[willow]

I made it all the way through Bitten, and a couple of the other books in the 'Women of the Otherworld' series. I gave, a HUGE swathe of doubt, since I didn't think Bitten had been MEANT to be the 1st in a series (given what happens in the following series where the world opens up).

But I made it, 4 books in? Maybe 5. And in terms of non hetero characters? Nothing. In terms of the manly men? Even the geeky ones are 'manly' in a very specific way.

And all through it, I couldn't help twitching.

The final straw for me, was reading the short story of what happens BEFORE Bitten. Namely how Elena comes to be a werewolf. It's a good short story. It really is. And I do end up feeling the two characters had been very much in love. But it's there, in the story, that Clay risks Elena's life (I'm thinking I've the names right, but it's been a couple years) for HIS own needs. He's sure things will work out fine, he's sure she's trustworthy. But he never talks to her about anything. He chooses FOR her.

On the one hand, yes, you can be very much in love with someone and they hurt and betray you horribly (and be clueless as to why it's a betrayal) and you could end up getting over that because you still love them.

But that emotional stuff isn't really addressed. At least... not from ELENA's perspective. The short story(ies) reveals all SORTS of things about CLAY. His fear of losing her, the pressures put on him to give her up, etc...etc.. His emotional turmoil before he does what he does.

But for me, there was never any satisfactory dealings via Elena's POV. She's angry and upset and frightened after a while, and then she runs away and eventually in Bitten she 'comes to understand'. With a couple shavings of 'overcome by her love for him'.

Meanwhile, I sat there all .... So they violate her by not giving her a choice? The way they violate the child-mother bond by taking all the sons? It's just a nonstop clan theme of not giving women choices.

So, uhm, yeah. Warning (sorry for unintentional spoilers), but this might frustrate the heck out of you.

Uhm, if you like Victorian Stuff? I just finished books 1-3 of 'The Agency' series, by Y.S. Lee, involving protaganist Mary Quinn. It was pretty good.

[sqbr]

But for me, there was never any satisfactory dealings via Elena's POV. She's angry and upset and frightened after a while, and then she runs away and eventually in Bitten she 'comes to understand'. With a couple shavings of 'overcome by her love for him'.

Meanwhile, I sat there all .... So they violate her by not giving her a choice? The way they violate the child-mother bond by taking all the sons? It's just a nonstop clan theme of not giving women choices.

Yes, exactly!

I've read the first of that series, I liked the plot and characters etc but she kept focusing on the plot points I wasn't interested in and glossing over events I would would have like more focus on, I found it very frustrating so didn't seek out any more.

[glamaphonic]

In my experience, Bitten (specifically Clay) tends to be extremely divisive. It doesn't hit buttons for me because, among other reasons, Elena's perspective of their society is extremely limited and based on her experience with the like 30 total werewolves who live in North America, also the entire point of Jeremy's reign as Alpha is to deviate from the traditional ways of the North American werewolves, and furthermore the narrative doesn't actually agree with/endorse the deeply misogynistic ways of the North American werewolves and I'll stop here before I start an essay about how over the course of the series the ultimate point is to take the hyper-masculine hyper-misogynistic background of werewolves and subvert it by making Elena the Alpha werewolf. BUT all that said, if the werewolves make you uncomfortable, you should probably skip to Dime Store Magic!!!!!!!

[sqbr]

I must admit I let my general frustration with the genre spill over into this post, I did like that Elena clearly isn't misogynistic (unlike certain other Urban Fantasy heroines I could mention) and it felt like the werewolves sexist view wasn't particularly supported by the text (if not actively subverted either, at least at the point I was up to. But I can believe that this changes).

But we were still supposed to like the male werewolves, and see Clay as a viable love interest, and I just couldn't. He hit all my "abusive stalkery gas-lighting ex boyfriend" buttons, and that was my main issue with the book. I was enjoying it well enough when I was rooting for him to sacrifice himself to save Elena so she could get together with her real, less horrible love interest, it was only when I realised that wasn't going to happen that I stopped reading. (I realise he later gets revealed to be less terrible than he appears, but once those buttons have been pushed for me it takes a lot to unpush them)

Are the later heroes less likely to hit those "creepy and abusive areshole" buttons? Because I did like the writing and would be willing to give the others a go if so.

[glamaphonic]

But we were still supposed to like the male werewolves, and see Clay as a viable love interest, and I just couldn't. He hit all my "abusive stalkery gas-lighting ex boyfriend" buttons

That's fair. Like I said, Clay is divisive. His and Elena's relationship, while it works for them (and Clay's obsessive/possessive tendencies and the reasons for them are addressed by Elena, Clay, and the narrative) is also not repeated in any of the other relationships in the series. Like ultimately the narrative and Elena's position is that they're both fucked up, but their relationship is not abusive for her, it's not unsafe, or uncomfortable. She creates her boundaries and he ultimately respects them. It works for them, but isn't the... baseline for anyone else's relationship or anything that they or the narrative feels should be emulated. Also, I do politely disagree with the above poster that the series doesn't deal with how Elena feels about Clay changing her into a werewolf. That's a major Issue in their relationship for the duration of the entire 13 book series.

Bitten is essentially the story about Elena accepting that being a werewolf and not pretending to be otherwise is what she wants. And yes she loves and misses Clay. But it's about what she wants out of her life, what the Pack and Stonehaven and all of that means to her, it's about her embracing her fundamental nature (which is one of my favorite things about the series, in fact, that Elena is allowed to be MONSTROUS in a way that doesn't often happen for female protagonists, who if they are some manner of supernatural monster they're always the ~nicer~ ~gentler~ version of it), not she just loves Clay so much that she must give up everything and go back to him. She's not really giving much of anything up because she legitimately just doesn't really care about her fake human life and prefers life as a Pack werewolf beta and enforcer.

the werewolves sexist view wasn't particularly supported by the text (if not actively subverted either, at least at the point I was up to. But I can believe that this changes

Jeremy specifically as a character and as an Alpha is about subverting the bullshit prescriptive masculinity that North American werewolf society founded itself on and when you eventually find out about other werewolf Packs, they aren't necessarily like that. (For instance, down the line there's a young werewolf from Australia whose whole family, mother and sisters included, lived together. And there is a Russian werewolf pack that also doesn't interact with women the same way.)

Basically it's all a situation of the presence of an element isn't an endorsement? But I can understand how various things would be triggery (which is why I warned so extensively in my post).

SORRY I DIDN'T MEAN TO WRITE YOU AN ESSAY.

At any rate, the answer to your actual question: none of the other heroes are anything like Clay, which is why I suggested you just skip to Dime Store Magic. Though, there's a lot of backstory for that (and the introduction of the main characters) in Stolen -- the second Elena book -- you'll be able to pick up on it without reading that.

[willow]

"Also, I do politely disagree with the above poster that the series doesn't deal with how Elena feels about Clay changing her into a werewolf. That's a major Issue in their relationship for the duration of the entire 13 book series."

I remember reading all the way up to a pregnancy. And at that point I just couldn't deal anymore. So yeah, it's not the whole series by far. But I honestly do not remember any further exploration of the issue. What I do remember is lots and lots of;

1. Clay being an over protective possessive asswipe like ever. other. werewolf. male. in the genre

2. Him not being as bad as a sadistic rapist - possible murderer (presented so by text).

3. Elena having issues with her identity as a woman, as a wolf, as a wolfy woman (lots of self esteem issues, lot of fear based reactions and avoidance stuff, lots of unresolved trauma twitches).

Yes Jeremy is presented as being 'gentle'. But it's gentleness within a very male/masculine paradigm.

And also? If the series is all about how the North American wolves had effed up ideas? All the North American wolves were white, right? I do not remember differently at all. That may have contributed quite harshly to me utter distaste.

If this is a thing about triggers and 'not for me'. Then yeah, it really wasn't for me and I tried and I tried because I did like the writing. But I just ended up frustrated. Doesn't mean someone else can't and doesn't enjoy the story.

[glamaphonic]

Look, I honestly don't know how you could read into the series and think that how Elena feels about being turned into a werewolf isn't dealt with from her POV, so obviously we're not going to agree on that and I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make about Jeremy's kind of masculinity.

I didn't come here to argue, just to help sqbr find books in the series that might work better for her since she liked the writing.

And no all the North American wolves weren't white. There are black and latino werewolves, and Jeremy himself is Japanese.

[willow]

Huh, I don't remember Jeremy being Japanese American. That's good to know.

And as I said in my original post, I didn't find Elena's situation satisfactory. As I said in my second post, that some things just aren't for everyone and I do not begrudge others liking the series. I like you, am simply sharing things that irked or upset me. Or were or were not memorably handled.

[sqbr]

No, I'm glad you write me an essay! You've made me realise that I may be able to enjoy the story as a drama and fantasy novel and just ignore the romance subplot (unless it manages to win me over) I tried not reading it and kept wanting to know what happened next so this is good :)

I'm going to give Bitten another go and if I still can't get through it will jump to Dime Store Magic, thanks!

[torachan]

Yeah, that was one thing I didn't like about Soulless. Hardly any women are vampires and werewolves because for some reason they tend to die rather than get turned. Because women are just delicate and unable to handle being powerful supernatural creatures, I guess. :-/

[sqbr]

Yeah. On the plus side the book inspired me to get back to writing the lesbian vampire game I'm working on :D

[holyschist]

Oh no, is this a trend now? I've seen that in other books. >:(

[cest_what]

Of course, he's the most obnoxious and unpleasant man in the story, he must be the romantic lead.

This is hands down the most ragemaking element of mainstream genre fiction romance for me. With the added bonus that he is, usually, a decent person to everybody else. Which people tell the heroine when she complains about him. Resulting in a) her feelings being dismissed as unimportant or irrational, and b) the implication that only being a jerk to her/people he's attracted to is better than being a jerk by default. Rather than being a huge gtfo warning sign?

[sqbr]

Right! Ugh.

[hebethen]

*Liu :P

Would you like some f/f space opera romance Homestuck fic? That is a thing which I know exists.

[sqbr]

Thanks, oops! Is that the Jade/Aradiabot one? I love that story. Or is there more?

[hebethen]

Sadly, that's the only one I know too. It's wonderful, and also lonely :')

[softestbullet]

Aw geez, that sounds annoying. I eagerly await any recs you may have someday, though!

[sqbr]

If I find anything I will make sure to squee about it :)

[holyschist]

I find it eternally baffling how many authors feel it's desperately important for werewolves to be super-duper sexist, and as a bonus, usually more homophobic and gender essentialist and generally awful than mainstream human society. (I can think of one mainstream paranormal romance/urban fantasy series that acknowledges gay werewolves--who naturally face extra prejudice--but lesbian werewolves would probably be unthinkable in it.)

...and it can't even be justified with wolf biology. I think it says more about the author's assumptions about humans than anything else. I have nearly given up hope at this point that there might be werewolf fiction I don't want to throw across the room.

[sqbr]

Yeah, me too. It's annoyingly consistent between authors.