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I was discussing with a friend the attitude that genderswapping male characters is not "celebrating female characters". Because it felt both true and false to me, and I think I've figured out why.
This is in the context of fans of a (probably somewhat sexist) canon with male and female characters, who are making fanworks/gifsets/posts about how great their fave is etc. I'm going to assume all characters are cis for clarity of argument, because the trans-character-including version of this discussion gets messy fast.
So. On a literal level, an original female character or genderswapped canon male character is exactly as much a "female character" as a canon female character. Someone who posts about how much they love them is loving a female character.
But! Within your average canon, "female character" often implies two things: (a) being female (b) Having a "female character" role in the narrative. Female characters don't get to be the hero, are more likely to be in support roles, are treated as less important, needing rescuing, more sexualised, etc.
Meanwhile, male characters are the opposite. Specifically, they get to be the protagonist.
This is one reason why I, as a trans masculine person, still very strongly identify with female characters. Not only do I get treated like a woman in real life, but fictional characters who resemble me (including characters who are seen as trans masculine or non-binary, to the extent a canon can recognise us as existing) are usually treated as lesser, weaker, less central etc by the narrative.
So when I want to see "female characters" from a sexist canon celebrated, I want to see characters who are treated as lesser by the narrative for being women celebrated. And when I see other (generally female) fans only like "female characters" who are gender-swapped versions of the male characters, or their own OCs, it kinda pisses me off. It feels like they're saying someone like me isn't worthy of being a protagonist/central character etc.
But... this is me, someone who isn't a woman, feeling pissed off that actual women (as well as people of other genders) are liking a female character because she isn't the particular kind of female character I relate to.
Which is certainly related to sexism, but absolutely not the same as those fans "hating women".
Especially because a lot of the time, fans of any gender who have trouble relating to canon female characters who are treated as lesser by the narrative will relate to canon female characters who aren't treated as lesser by the narrative. And I don't mean "characters who are good at traditionally male things", I mean characters who the narrative values the way narratives usually value men. How people do and do not connect to characters with different gender presentations is an interesting topic but not what I'm talking about here. A lot of these characters are good at traditionally Masculine Character things like murdering bad guys etc, but that's not always the same as being masculine in a gendery way. And plenty of fans struggle to connect with an ostensibly kickass side female character who is sidelined within a sexist story.
Like afaict, a lot of the time female fans negative reaction to "female characters" as written by sexist narratives isn't internalised sexism it's self protection, seeing female characters written this way makes them feel like less of a person, so they don't see those female characters as relating to them as actual real life women. And these kinds of fans are often genuinely very happy when they encounter a canon female character they CAN connect with, and will love that character MORE than their male faves.
I actually can have a very similar reaction to non-binary characters, those are just a lot less common. Like, there are higher odds I'll connect with a character who is intended to be read as cis but has (often kinda transphobicly written) gnc traits I can head-canon as being non-binary, than I will with characters who are intended to be read as non-binary but something about the depiction is uncomfortable for me. But when I do encounter a canonically non-binary character I click with it's AMAZING. And it can be difficult talking to other non-binary people whose gut reactions of "I click with them as non-binary"/"this just feels wrong" line up differently unless we're careful not to treat our own emotional reactions as universal or objective. (For example, some other non-binary people hate all genderswaps on principle as objectively transphobic, and I do not, which has caused some conflict!)
Now I'm definitely not saying this is the only thing going on when people react against canon female characters. There's absolutely sexism involved too, especially from male fans but also from some female and non-binary fans. But there's also in general a lot of "because I am a woman who experiences sexism I like this character and anyone else who hates sexism will feel the same" vs "because I am a woman who experiences sexism I dislike this character and anyone else who hates sexism will feel the same", with no space for people's very different emotional experiences, including those of us who aren't women at all. Which is painful for everyone and just creates more bitterness and false dichotomies.
Also, I'm not saying people who don't connect with canon female characters are sexist if they don't connect with non-canon female characters either. Afaict a lot of the time they are again reacting against the general Issues Around Female Characters, this time by avoiding the whole category. Yeah, this theoretically has issues with Representation but I think they should only be criticised on those grounds if they're like... creative director of a large multi-media conglomerate or something. Individual fans are just expressing themselves and having fun.
What I think people SHOULD do is try harder to separate (in their minds and how they express themselves) "I have a negative emotional reaction to this character" from "there are issues with how this character is written" and "someone like this character would be bad in real life". But also separate "I connect with this character" from "this character is objectively good and everyone should love them" and "if people do not connect with this character they are saying something bad about people like me in real life".
And it doesn't divide neatly along "female character likers" vs "female character dislikers". For example, a lot of people will only like some kinds of canon female characters, and they will look down on anyone who dislikes their faves while simultaneously spouting exactly the same sort of "she's just objectively a bad unlikeable character" rhetoric about their unfaves.
Like one thing I see from a lot of "feminist analysts", especially cis male ones, is a deep instinctive dislike of sexy, sexualised female characters, who they see as inherently sexist and shallow even if they're three dimensional and written by a female writer exploring feminist themes, while they will praise as Feminist Subversion female characters who aren't sexualised, yet to me seem kinda generic and very obviously written to be wish fulfilment by sexist male creators. And like, it is very understandable to have an instinctive negative reaction to the sexualisation of women and consider it a huge black mark, and to find it refreshing when that doesn't happen. It's just frustrating when people go from that to "the only people who like this female character are creepy dudes", especially when the person saying it is a man criticising female fans. And then there's the equally obnoxious "you only like this unsexualised character because you're too stupid to realise she's written that way for sexist reasons, and if you were a REAL feminist you'd prefer my sexualised fave" backlash.
All of this gets way more nasty when we move from "largely female fanbase talking about female characters" to "largely male fanbase talking about female characters" or "largely cis/white/able-bodied fanbase talking about trans/POC/disabled characters". I do think the same dynamics are in play, but the mix is different, and the general vibe is often really toxic and full of barely disguised "I dislike this character because I genuinely dislike this group irl". But it's not just that, even then. And in general there's a distinction between "not clicking with this kind of (or specific) marginalised character" and "treating this kind of marginalised character as inherently lesser" that sometimes get lost, both by those criticising other people's behaviour and those defending their own.
There's also other ways characters get marked by the narrative. I used to be confused by people who fell in love with a villainous character who did terrible things in canon, then wrote fic where the canon villain was the hero and did nothing wrong, while the canon hero was a one dimensional evil villain who did all the things the villain did in canon. If doing those actions was ok in canon, why is it bad now? But afaict often these people click with the "being seen as a villain by the narrative" aspect of the original version of the character, and even in their fanfic are still motivated by that original feeling. The actual actions the characters take on a Watsonian level is less important.
Meanwhile I'm also a fan of a lot of villains, but I click with the "being seen as a villain by the narrative for things you actually did and then have to deal with the consequences of" aspect, which results in a very different sort of villain fanfic. And there's all sorts of other ways people relate to villains both positively and negatively. ALL OF WHICH ARE VALID but sadly result in some very nasty discourse when fans of each come into contact.
All of which then combines in hugely complex ways with responses to female characters etc. Some people only like female characters regardless of villainy, some like male villains and female heroes, some like the reverse, some people have unrelated preferences, etc.
Like I have seen people argue that Rey (female protagonist)/Kylo (male villain) fans are promoting abuse, while happily shipping Kylo with a female original character with similarities to Rey. Which, asides from the hypocritical narrow-mindednesss, confused me on a Watsonian level. But there's nothing inherently wrong with having a very strong negative emotional reaction to the first ship and positive to the second, and thinking about why people feel that way I'm guessing it's because of the difference in narrative framing. The protagonist of a sexist mainstream blockbuster doing X feels different to their original character doing X.
So yeah I guess in general I just feel like when people talk about fictional characters they need to remember that they are fictional, which affects how we relate to them in complicated ways. How we feel about fictional characters is affected by how we feel about people in real life, but also by how we feel about narratives, and real life doesn't have narratives the same way. And overall we need to have compassion and understanding for the varying experiences of the real people we're interacting with.
This is in the context of fans of a (probably somewhat sexist) canon with male and female characters, who are making fanworks/gifsets/posts about how great their fave is etc. I'm going to assume all characters are cis for clarity of argument, because the trans-character-including version of this discussion gets messy fast.
So. On a literal level, an original female character or genderswapped canon male character is exactly as much a "female character" as a canon female character. Someone who posts about how much they love them is loving a female character.
But! Within your average canon, "female character" often implies two things: (a) being female (b) Having a "female character" role in the narrative. Female characters don't get to be the hero, are more likely to be in support roles, are treated as less important, needing rescuing, more sexualised, etc.
Meanwhile, male characters are the opposite. Specifically, they get to be the protagonist.
This is one reason why I, as a trans masculine person, still very strongly identify with female characters. Not only do I get treated like a woman in real life, but fictional characters who resemble me (including characters who are seen as trans masculine or non-binary, to the extent a canon can recognise us as existing) are usually treated as lesser, weaker, less central etc by the narrative.
So when I want to see "female characters" from a sexist canon celebrated, I want to see characters who are treated as lesser by the narrative for being women celebrated. And when I see other (generally female) fans only like "female characters" who are gender-swapped versions of the male characters, or their own OCs, it kinda pisses me off. It feels like they're saying someone like me isn't worthy of being a protagonist/central character etc.
But... this is me, someone who isn't a woman, feeling pissed off that actual women (as well as people of other genders) are liking a female character because she isn't the particular kind of female character I relate to.
Which is certainly related to sexism, but absolutely not the same as those fans "hating women".
Especially because a lot of the time, fans of any gender who have trouble relating to canon female characters who are treated as lesser by the narrative will relate to canon female characters who aren't treated as lesser by the narrative. And I don't mean "characters who are good at traditionally male things", I mean characters who the narrative values the way narratives usually value men. How people do and do not connect to characters with different gender presentations is an interesting topic but not what I'm talking about here. A lot of these characters are good at traditionally Masculine Character things like murdering bad guys etc, but that's not always the same as being masculine in a gendery way. And plenty of fans struggle to connect with an ostensibly kickass side female character who is sidelined within a sexist story.
Like afaict, a lot of the time female fans negative reaction to "female characters" as written by sexist narratives isn't internalised sexism it's self protection, seeing female characters written this way makes them feel like less of a person, so they don't see those female characters as relating to them as actual real life women. And these kinds of fans are often genuinely very happy when they encounter a canon female character they CAN connect with, and will love that character MORE than their male faves.
I actually can have a very similar reaction to non-binary characters, those are just a lot less common. Like, there are higher odds I'll connect with a character who is intended to be read as cis but has (often kinda transphobicly written) gnc traits I can head-canon as being non-binary, than I will with characters who are intended to be read as non-binary but something about the depiction is uncomfortable for me. But when I do encounter a canonically non-binary character I click with it's AMAZING. And it can be difficult talking to other non-binary people whose gut reactions of "I click with them as non-binary"/"this just feels wrong" line up differently unless we're careful not to treat our own emotional reactions as universal or objective. (For example, some other non-binary people hate all genderswaps on principle as objectively transphobic, and I do not, which has caused some conflict!)
Now I'm definitely not saying this is the only thing going on when people react against canon female characters. There's absolutely sexism involved too, especially from male fans but also from some female and non-binary fans. But there's also in general a lot of "because I am a woman who experiences sexism I like this character and anyone else who hates sexism will feel the same" vs "because I am a woman who experiences sexism I dislike this character and anyone else who hates sexism will feel the same", with no space for people's very different emotional experiences, including those of us who aren't women at all. Which is painful for everyone and just creates more bitterness and false dichotomies.
Also, I'm not saying people who don't connect with canon female characters are sexist if they don't connect with non-canon female characters either. Afaict a lot of the time they are again reacting against the general Issues Around Female Characters, this time by avoiding the whole category. Yeah, this theoretically has issues with Representation but I think they should only be criticised on those grounds if they're like... creative director of a large multi-media conglomerate or something. Individual fans are just expressing themselves and having fun.
What I think people SHOULD do is try harder to separate (in their minds and how they express themselves) "I have a negative emotional reaction to this character" from "there are issues with how this character is written" and "someone like this character would be bad in real life". But also separate "I connect with this character" from "this character is objectively good and everyone should love them" and "if people do not connect with this character they are saying something bad about people like me in real life".
And it doesn't divide neatly along "female character likers" vs "female character dislikers". For example, a lot of people will only like some kinds of canon female characters, and they will look down on anyone who dislikes their faves while simultaneously spouting exactly the same sort of "she's just objectively a bad unlikeable character" rhetoric about their unfaves.
Like one thing I see from a lot of "feminist analysts", especially cis male ones, is a deep instinctive dislike of sexy, sexualised female characters, who they see as inherently sexist and shallow even if they're three dimensional and written by a female writer exploring feminist themes, while they will praise as Feminist Subversion female characters who aren't sexualised, yet to me seem kinda generic and very obviously written to be wish fulfilment by sexist male creators. And like, it is very understandable to have an instinctive negative reaction to the sexualisation of women and consider it a huge black mark, and to find it refreshing when that doesn't happen. It's just frustrating when people go from that to "the only people who like this female character are creepy dudes", especially when the person saying it is a man criticising female fans. And then there's the equally obnoxious "you only like this unsexualised character because you're too stupid to realise she's written that way for sexist reasons, and if you were a REAL feminist you'd prefer my sexualised fave" backlash.
All of this gets way more nasty when we move from "largely female fanbase talking about female characters" to "largely male fanbase talking about female characters" or "largely cis/white/able-bodied fanbase talking about trans/POC/disabled characters". I do think the same dynamics are in play, but the mix is different, and the general vibe is often really toxic and full of barely disguised "I dislike this character because I genuinely dislike this group irl". But it's not just that, even then. And in general there's a distinction between "not clicking with this kind of (or specific) marginalised character" and "treating this kind of marginalised character as inherently lesser" that sometimes get lost, both by those criticising other people's behaviour and those defending their own.
There's also other ways characters get marked by the narrative. I used to be confused by people who fell in love with a villainous character who did terrible things in canon, then wrote fic where the canon villain was the hero and did nothing wrong, while the canon hero was a one dimensional evil villain who did all the things the villain did in canon. If doing those actions was ok in canon, why is it bad now? But afaict often these people click with the "being seen as a villain by the narrative" aspect of the original version of the character, and even in their fanfic are still motivated by that original feeling. The actual actions the characters take on a Watsonian level is less important.
Meanwhile I'm also a fan of a lot of villains, but I click with the "being seen as a villain by the narrative for things you actually did and then have to deal with the consequences of" aspect, which results in a very different sort of villain fanfic. And there's all sorts of other ways people relate to villains both positively and negatively. ALL OF WHICH ARE VALID but sadly result in some very nasty discourse when fans of each come into contact.
All of which then combines in hugely complex ways with responses to female characters etc. Some people only like female characters regardless of villainy, some like male villains and female heroes, some like the reverse, some people have unrelated preferences, etc.
Like I have seen people argue that Rey (female protagonist)/Kylo (male villain) fans are promoting abuse, while happily shipping Kylo with a female original character with similarities to Rey. Which, asides from the hypocritical narrow-mindednesss, confused me on a Watsonian level. But there's nothing inherently wrong with having a very strong negative emotional reaction to the first ship and positive to the second, and thinking about why people feel that way I'm guessing it's because of the difference in narrative framing. The protagonist of a sexist mainstream blockbuster doing X feels different to their original character doing X.
So yeah I guess in general I just feel like when people talk about fictional characters they need to remember that they are fictional, which affects how we relate to them in complicated ways. How we feel about fictional characters is affected by how we feel about people in real life, but also by how we feel about narratives, and real life doesn't have narratives the same way. And overall we need to have compassion and understanding for the varying experiences of the real people we're interacting with.
no subject
Oh, yes, and what kind of narratives we want at a given time -- I feel like I want a very different thing from narratives that I want to have fun with, and say, reading a book that I'm reading for the themes.
"celebrating female characters"
This language caught my eye, because I actually don't personally relate to the idea of doing any kind of celebration of characters (not sure how common that is?). It feels to me like it implies a kind of ethical approval of how the character is written, a gladness that the character exists, and (perhaps) an intent to promote, that I don't think I'm personally doing when I'm engaging in when I'm doing fandom. The exception might be a fanweek or a zine was like, "let's celebrate [ship] or [character], I would absolutely buy into that -- but that feels more like celebrating the community to me and being like, "hi! I really like this thing too!". But, I can see how my fannishness contributes to a sense of a community that celebrates certain characters over others, though.
no subject
Every time I've sat down to reply to this I got distracted by pondering the extent to which I do or do not want to "celebrate" characters of various types, and what that even means. I didn't ever come to any neat conclusions so I will just ramble for a bit, but you got me thinking!
I definitely don't subscribe to the "if you only write het you're being homophobic" etc approach to fandom, I think people should have fun however suits them, including myself. But I do enjoy making an effort to make works about characters/ships etc that otherwise don't get a lot of attention, even if they're not my personal faves. And I guess... sometimes it feels like some characters are not seen as people, or important, or lovable, by canon and/or fandom, and I want to push against that.
Beyond that I often enjoy making things for other people in general: drawing a rare pair as a request in some ways hits the same button as participating in a Characters of Colour fest etc, in either case I am Helping, which feels nice.
Hmm. I didn't entirely figure out or articulate my feelings very well but I made an attempt, and that will do!
no subject
. And I guess... sometimes it feels like some characters are not seen as people, or important, or lovable, by canon and/or fandom, and I want to push against that.
<3
I get the sense that a lot of your celebrating of characters is community-motivated, and about crafting the kind of community you want to see? And of course in fandom, characters aren't just characters, but also symbols and a way of relating to other fans. Which I think is the piece I was missing!
In general, I think you might be more focused on thinking deeply about fandom and...hmm, trying to model the kind of behavior that you want to see in fandom, and the kind that creates a more welcoming, healthier space (which, probably, because it's not hard to do that more than me xD). In general, I come to fandom to be anonymous and to not think too hard -- there are other communities where I work a lot harder to help and to push against dynamics I don't like, which I think is also why I don't do that much of it in fandom. It can get tiring and hard.
no subject
This sent me off on another thought journey, because thinking about it... not only is fandom a community I value, in some ways it is my primary community.
Not because I think it's the most objectively important, but because fandom communities have been pretty much the only place I ever really felt like I fit in and was an accepted part of a community in the first place. At first I was like "is this because of being housebound?" but thinking back, when I was healthy I made many attempts to connect with local political groups, people in my university department, queer groups etc and it was almost always alienating and miserable. Even when I managed to make individual friends, they were generally fannish or otherwise unconventional for the wider group. My university's scifi club was the first place I ever really fit into a social space, and it was also the first place I got into activism (through a feminist subgroup), where I met my husband and many close friends, and how I got my first (and last) Proper Job, a government section where so many of us were in the local scifi community that our bosses knew to expect everything to grind to a halt when we all took time off work for the big local scifi convention. It was all about as unanonymous as you can get!
And I got into online fanfic fandom through people I knew offline through the local scifi fandom community, and those ties still exist decades later: right now I'm working on a script for handling downloaded fic from the AO3 with a friend I met at uni when we were teenagers, and sometimes I pop into the Naruto fanfic discord server of a friend from highschool. These days I have many other online friends and am in online communities without any direct tie to my offline life, but there's no neat line. Also I'm just generally bad at being anonymous or having multiple identities, I do it as much as I do because the internet requires it, not because it comes naturally.
So yeah. I care a lot about what happens in fandom, because in many ways it's my home. I get that it's not home for everyone who passes through, and everyone has their own priorities and things they focus on, and that's good! Like, I'm very glad there's people out there who DON'T find getting involved with local politics deeply unpleasant and unappealing, because someone needs to do it and it's not going to be me! And I'm much less energised about trying to Fix fandom than I was in my youth, because I eventually realised it was making me unhappy without achieving enough to make up for it. And I am in a lot of ways more alienated from the fannish community than I used to be. But... yeah.
Phew this turned into a novel! I'm going to go think about this some more, thanks for helping me poke my brain :) And it's interesting hearing how differently other people approach things.
no subject
Also, you say: "What I think people SHOULD do is try harder to separate (in their minds and how they express themselves) "I have a negative emotional reaction to this character" from "there are issues with how this character is written" and "someone like this character would be bad in real life". But also separate "I connect with this character" from "this character is objectively good and everyone should love them" and "if people do not connect with this character they are saying something bad about people like me in real life"."
And OH how much I wish people were that self aware. Fandom and the world at large would be a better place if so.
There has been some amount of genderswap in several fandoms of mine and for me, it was one of the first places I ever saw that idea dealt with in a way that was a response to the typical sexism in Hollywood products. It was really fascinating to think about and quite mind expanding for me.
no subject
Thank you! And yeah, genderswap can be used to explore all sorts of gender related issues in interesting ways.
no subject
I hope that's okay with you!
(I'd originally meant to quote the parts I particularly liked, but it was difficult to single out anything in particular because I liked the whole thing so much.)
no subject
Absolutely ok! I have thoughts on your thoughts but realised I'd left you hanging. So: Someone being inspired to write a post riffing off a public meta post of mine is not only okay with me but fantastic :)
no subject