Feminism and race

[sqbr]

This is an intermittently edited collection of ideas for a panel on "Feminism and Race" I ran at femmeconne. As such it's aimed at feminists/women, though anyone else is welcome to read it. I put all the links I found (and there's some really good stuff) in a separate post, since it's important that my argument can stand on its own (I can't give people links in person!)

My plan is was to briefly cover the basic ideas and then get into a moderated discussion where all I'll do is keep things on topic and inject the odd new idea or possible sub-topic, since I'm pretty sure people will have as much to explain to me as vice versa.

EDIT: I discussed what happened at this panel here. Overall it went ok.

Summary

This just covers the stuff I didn't write in dot-points to start with :)

-this panel is about the nature of race and racism, their history and how they interact with gender and feminism, and what we can do to fight racism as women.

-Open fluid discussion, I'm no expert and also have fried brain, will go through my main points and then we can discuss whatever

RACE
-race is a made up concept, but has power anyway and can't be ignored. Current form largely a creation of european colonialism, though xenophobia/predjudice etc are hardly new.
-racism=power+predjudice
-part of underlying social structure, creates white privilege.
-ALL racist. All white people have privilege and a responsibility to counter it, not our fault and no need to feel guilty, need to accept it, understand it, try to act as non/anti-racist as we can.
-to deal with racism we need to understand how it works and it's history

WHITENESS (equivalent of patriachy)
-invisible: see ourselves as "normal", the default, ie "australian"=white. Culture clash/racism is seen as a problem with "them", rather than a product of white culture.
-see anything from a white POV as objective, everything else as subjective (so we are "better qualified" to make decisions than anyone else)
-see our own privileged position as natural, anything which attacks that as "reverse racism"
-see non-white POV/experience as uniform (and less important) our own important and varied/individual

FEMINISM
-both have similar goals, but white women are still racist, and nonwhite men still sexist, so feminist and civil rights movement have rocky history. Tend to see their own cause as paramount, ignore experience and joint loyalty of those caught in the middle ie nonwhite women.
- tend to think we know best, make maternalistic decisions for nonwhite women rather than letting them have any power/voice
-"for all women" but mainly seems to notice the problems of white middle class women

NOT ALL BAD!

-Feminism (and society in general) has gotten a lot better over the past hundred years.
-white people can be strong and useful allies against racism *if we listen to what non-white people actually want* (at least that's what I tell myself)

Anti-racism 101

I'm going to assume we all agree that racism is bad. In my opinion, we white feminists are the worst sorts of hypocrites if we demand that men take our needs seriously without taking the needs of other disadvantaged groups just as seriously ourselves, and racism causes an awful lot of disadvantage.

So, first off I'm white, and don't really know that much about feminism or race, I'm just an interested amateur, so to speak. If you have any additions or corrections etc please speak up! EDIT: thankyou to everyone who's offered me advice! Please read the links and comments to see all the fine brains I picked to write this :)

A lot of non-white people overseas use the term "people of colour" or "women of colour" etc, but like a lot of australians the word pings as skin-crawlingly racist to me, even though I know that in that context it's not. I'm genuinely unsure as to what term non-white australians prefer as a rule, but I know some do identify as people of colour and don't like the term "non-white", and this is very true of americans, so that's something to keep in mind.

Also, I have HUGE problems following the "shut up and listen to non-white people" precept, since shutting up is completely against my nature, but I am going to make a really concerted effort not to speak over any non-white people who have something they want to say on this topic (I'll also try not to talk over the white ones too much as well :))

Feminism and racism

Feminism and anti-racism have had somewhat of a love-hate relationship. On the surface the two look like they should go together: they're both about fighting for legal and social equality for a historically oppressed group, and use similar principles, arguments and theory. After all, a lot of women are not white, and half of all non-white people are women.

Unfortunately, while some white feminists have been staunch supporters of the civil rights movement, on the whole white women are just as racist as white men, and mainstream feminism has had a pretty rocky history when it comes to race.

In the same way that history tends to be written about men, feminist history tends to be written about white women, and the many contributions of non-white feminists, and the specific history of the ways in which non-white women have been and are oppressed and mistreated, tend to be ignored. (This is even more true if they come from a non-western country) For example, in the late 19th/early 20th century white women were often directly responsible for the mistreatment of their aboriginal servants, who were basically treated as slaves.

Feminist theory and publishing focusses very much on the interests and needs of white middle class women and other voices tend to be lost. This generally isn't deliberate, but works in the same way that women's voices are ignored by male-dominated society: they're just not interesting or important enough, where these "objective" measures are of course based on the preferences and experiences of the privileged group.

Often non-white women are told that they should just follow mainstream feminism's lead out of solidarity with their "sisters", even if this lead ignores their actual needs, and if they instead (or also) choose to focus on issues of race then they are accused of factionalism or selfishness. But why should they be forced to put their gender above all the other aspects of their identity?

Many white small-l liberals, including feminists, have very simplistic and counterproductive attitudes towards "conservative" cultures/religions such as Islam, and tend to assume that they are incompatible with the general goals of feminism, thus alienating muslim etc feminists.

Anti-racist white people (including feminists) tend to decide whether or not something is racist, what should be done about it, and whether or not these actiopns are effective amongst ourselves without seeking out the opinions or experiences of non-white people.

Non-white women are seen as victims with no agency to be saved by white feminists. It is never considered that they might have their own feminist movements, or that their different experiences may lead to them pursuing a form of feminism with very different goals and approaches.

There is often an assumption that any woman who doesn't identify as feminist or criticises the woman's movement is either ignorant or a deliberate enemy of all women, and so any legitimate criticism of the movement is ignored as "petty factionalism".

Some examples of racism and the silencing/belittling of the voices of non-white people in the feminist movement:

• all the handwringing about how "unfeminist" it was for black women to vote for Barack Obama instead of Hillary Clinton, without any mention that it would be equally "racist" of them to vote the other way.
  
• In "In Our Time" Susan Brownmiller talks about how important white women were to the civil rights movement and how hurt they felt when they were later excluded, without seeming to have any sympathy for men being excluded from the feminist movement.
  
• Germain Greer's book "On Rage" blames the problems of aboriginal australia on the racism-caused rage of aboriginal men, without showing signs of having discussed her ideas with or even having met actual aboriginal australians.
  

From "Sister Girl" by Jackie Hughes (talking about attempts by the women's movement to recruit aboriginal women in the 1970s):

The white women's movement argued, for example, that compared to men, women in Australia were poorly educated and worked in poorly paid jobs. Yet Aboriginal women were better educated than Aboriginal men, and when they were able to be employed, they worked in better status jobs than Aboriginal men. The white women's movement was at that time concerned with sexuality and the right to say "yes", to be sexually active without condemnation. For Aboriginal women, who were fighting denigratory sexual stereotypes and exploitation by white men, the issues was more often the right to say "no". Where white women's demands to control their fertility were related to contraception and abortion, Aboriginal women were subject to unwanted sterilisation and continued to struggle against the loss of their children to interventionist welfare agencies.

Intersectionality

Even if you remove explicit racism from feminism, it is not enough to have anti-racism and feminism as two separate movements. There are specific issues and oppressions relating to non-white women which are not simply the intersection of the issues affecting white women and non-white men.

Feminism tends not to focus on these issues at all, and often works counter to them.

For example, as far as I can tell the accepted wisdom in the feminist movement is that the best way to deal with crimes against women is tougher sentencing and more powers for police. This ignores the hugely problematic relationship many non-white women have with the police, especially if they're poor or immigrant etc.

Firther complicating things are the other intersections with nationality, class, etc. Poor non-white women from non-western countries are not paid an awful lot of attention by mainstream feminism, except perhaps as faceless voiceless "victims" to pity.

Some particular issues which affect non-white women:

• being fetishised and seen even more as just sex objects than white women are (see for example the stereotype of the "hot asian woman")
  
• never included when society values/protects "The Family", "The Virtuous woman" etc.
  
• not included in mainstream ideas of attractiveness. In general, are unable to take advantage of the few avenues of "feminine power".
  
• a problematic relationship with "protective" forces like the police, government etc
  
• more likely to be poor, with all the associated issues
  
• being in a less powerful position, are more vulnerable to sexual assault and other abuse from those in power
  
• Different cultural standards mean they may be fine doing things white women would find restrictive and vice versa, but they are judged by white women's standards and seen as ignorant/oppressed if they don't act like a "normal" feminist (ie wearing the hijab can feel liberating and normal to many muslim women)
  
• muslim women in particular can have their lives severely curtailed when living in countries which are either non-muslim or anti-muslim, ie by restrictions on the wearing of headscarves, or even just the lack of gender segregated swimming pools
  

Australian issues

So the main places I've learned about this stuff have been on the internet, and thus have had a very american slant. I actually know embarrassingly little about the specifics of australian feminism, let alone as it relates to race.

I have heard it said that the australian women's movement in particular focusses very much on compromise and working within the staus quo. This makes us particularly prone to complicity with the existing social order in it's other aveniues of oppression ie racism, homophobia etc.

But some issues that come up here:
Immigrants

• There are apparently restrictive laws and expectations about the work migrants (especially dependent partners and women) can do.
  
• Being expected to "integrate" in all ways and reject their culture, while also getting a lot of rhetoric about how much more tolerant we are than their home country/culture
  
• Judged by australian standards of the traditional roles of men and women, which may not apply
  

Refugees

• Women and familes are treated incredibly badly in detention centres
  

Non-christian religions, especially Islam

• Muslims vary in their attitudes toward gender as much as christians do, and do not see the religion as inherently sexist.
  

Aboriginal issues

• The stolen generation, women having their children stolen and families broken up
  
• Ditto the NT intervention, and welfare sanctioning. Parents are having their autonomy to raise their children taken away.
  

Other general issues

• See the list of problems I listed above
  

And of course we shouldn't only care about the problems of australian women, white or otherwise. There are many very significant problems faced by women (and men!) overseas, on issues like rape as a weapon of war, reproductive freedom, and rights as basic as the vote.

Fandom

There have been so many arguments about racism in fanfic fandom (which it's important to note is very women dominated and has a significant feminist presence) that it's spawned it's own terminology: "Kerfuffles" and "imbroglios". Over and over, the pattern is that someone politely expresses a problem with something they feel is racist only to have the person they're criticising take it as a personal insult, and have all their friends rush to their aid and defensively attack anyone on the "other side".

Fantasy and science fiction have some seriously skeevy issues with cultural appropriation and exoticisation, and sff fans tend not to want to examine these to closely. (I have a lot to say on this topic as anyone whose read this lj for long will be aware :D)

I've heard a bit about non-white women feeling objectified and marginalised at american conventions, I don't know what it's like here but am sure similar stuff happens.

What can we white women do?

So, as far as I can tell the universally agreed first step in fighting against racism is to listen to the voices of non-white people. Which is to say, not me. I've got a bunch of links on the page to go with this panel to resources by non-white women talking about this stuff.

Now I'm white, and overall kind of clueless, so my interpretation should NOT be taken as gospel, but afaict beyond "shut up and listen" the general idea is:

• Become aware of our own white privilege and the effect this has on our experience and behaviour
  
• don't expect non-white people to explain everything to you, or to heap praise on your for making a token effort at anti-racism. Anti-racism is hard work, but not as hard as being a victim of racism.
  
• Don't freak out and become defensive when you or your group is accused of perpetuating racism, instead take the criticism on board and see what can be done about it
  
• Don't focus on the sexism of non-white men, or blame all of non-white women's problems on sexism/non-white men/white men. Racism, and our part of it, is a major problem which should be our first priority.
  
• give non-white people autonomy, over their own lives and over the anti-racist movement. Our main goal should be to not get in the way, not take over and "help them". We should be fighting with them, not for them.
  
• be willing to give up power to non-white people. If they do not have the ability to make and enforce decisions we don't like, nothing will change.
  
• discussions of racism should centre on the experiences and opinions of non-white people, not on white people discussing their own experiences and opinions amongst themselves (like we're doing right now :/)
  
• Don't consider anti-racism an "added extra": it should be an inherent part of all political/social analysis and action. If you ever ask "What does this mean for women" then "What does this mean for non-white women" should always be part of your answer.
  
• Once you're aware of what non-white people are fighting for, support them in this
  
• Value the experiences and problems of non-white people as much as those of white people
  
• Work to fight racism in our local community. For me this means fandom, and in this context it also means feminism.
  

Comments

[emma-in-oz.livejournal.com]

can you bring print outs for the library?

[alias_sqbr]

Print outs of this post or of the links? I was planning on revising the post after the panel and then posting it to the community, but I can print out a preliminary version too.

[emma-in-oz.livejournal.com]

either or both

Print outs of this post or of the links?

[alias_sqbr]

Righto, will see what I can do (and remember :))

[callistra.livejournal.com]

This is going to be fucking awesome
You can have two or three slots if you like.
:-) I am sure Babalon will agree with me.

[alias_sqbr]

Hmm, see I can see that being good in a general sense, but..I think I would burn out after the first session, especially given how generally sick I've been for the past three months or so. Unless someone else was to take over after the first panel was done to moderate general discussion or something.

[vegetus.livejournal.com]

Wow, this looks great really informative and if it wasn't being held in a space that I have an ethical problem with, with people who have previously made my life hell and well wasn't on the other side of the planet I'd go! (I think this is my subtle way of saying can you please post about how it was received as I would find it interesting)

Having discussed some of these issues with my friend S (who I've mentioned in my lj before and is Bangladeshi-Australian) I know that many people choose not to identify as "feminists" because of the apparent white dominance to the movement. Our parents generation in particular have issues with it moreso I think, perhaps because non-anglo gender equality is gaining more acceptance in the wider community. Some issues concerning immigration (not that I'm sure that this is what you were thinking of) may be:
* Restrictions on work etc for "dependent" partners of migrants (often women)
* Limits in the type of work they are expected to do when they migrate because of both gender and race (often "low skill" jobs)
* Being seen as being oppressed by their home culture/traditions my mainstream society
* Reassignment of gender roles in a different culture. I think there is a view that "if women do the housework and the men do something else this is by default sexist" by white feminists whislt in other cultural settings it is seen as a fair division of household labour.
* Pressure to abandon cultural values/preferences because they are deemed "sexist" in the eyes of white feminists.

I also remember reading an article about refugees from Sudan where the men felt disempowered because in Australia parenting support is given to the *mother* not the *father* so men, who had traditionally been the heads of their household and held the financial responsibility now felt lost. Not specifically about women, but about how cultural assumptions on gender roles can affect people.

Oh and I really liked your paragraph on how white feminists should be aware of their privillege status. When you have to time may I suggest "The Dreaded Comparison", "The Sexual Politics of Meat" and http://www.vegatopia.org/resources.html#ivu which was a really interesting academic presentation on racism/sexism/specism that look at interlocking oppressions.

[alias_sqbr]

(I think this is my subtle way of saying can you please post about how it was received as I would find it interesting)

I'm curious to see how it goes down too!

Yes, I should have specifically mentioned that there are good non-sexist reasons for a woman not to identify as feminist, given the defensive "With us or against us" tack a lot of feminists take (being people :/ )

Those are some good points, thanks for making them. I'm going to have another think and then rewrite some of the post, and they'll definitely go in there.

*reads some of that page*

The relationship of animal rights to human rights is I think a very interesting topic, but something I know so little about I might leave it out rather than ramble on vaguely :) I'll add that link, though, so people can read it for themselves.

[vegetus.livejournal.com]

Glad to be of help. I hope it will go well, you've done a hellava lot of research and thought about it lots.

Oh I don't think the AR/HR thing would be suitable for your presentation, just when I was reading through your post I went "hang this reminds me of the stuff that Matthew and Karen were talking about" so though you might be interested for future reference (and I don't know which email address you are using at the moment :)

[alias_sqbr]

18 of the 42 members of the lj community are on my flist, so if nothing else they can back me up if I forget what I'm saying or something :)

EDIT: On further thought I have decided not to add the link since it is a bit off topic, but I've included the stuff you said about immigrants etc and not all non-feminists being anti-women, I hope I got your points across ok.

[flyingblogspot.livejournal.com]

Wow, this looks like it is going to be sensational!

On women, feminism & Islam, I recall seeing a really interesting doco on SBS or the ABC a few years back and Turkish women's experience around a university ban on wearing the hijab. Sorry that I can't remember exactly what it was, but you get a whole lot of articles if you search for 'turkey women ban hijab'.

[alias_sqbr]

Yes, I've come accross a few interesting asticles etc about the way that "liberating" women from the headscarf basically just makes life more difficult for those women who feel the need to wear it. In western countries that sort of thing also comes along with a lot of racist baggage.

[ardhra]

I would suggest even more specific Australian issues and controversies to contextualise the issues. All the examples you've raised in your 'Feminism and racism' section are US examples, which kinda invites white people to dismiss anti-racism as being a "US-centric" perspective. Australia has its own history of sexualised racism, racist sexism, and racially dodgy feminism to talk about. I think US feminists/women of colour are capable of discussing these issues as they pertain to the USA, but we need a dialogue about Australia within Australia to really tackle them here.

If you can, check out the book Talkin' Up To The White Women: Aboriginal Women and Feminism by Aileen Moreton-Robinson, where she goes into some depth about the kinds of conflicts that have arisen between feminists and Aboriginal women activists around issues like representation, sexual violence, and sovereignty.

Ien Ang, Christina Ho, and Suvendrini Perera also discuss some of these issues in relation to immigrant women in Australia.

Also, given the recent Germaine Greer shenanigans, I think it might be prudent of you to point out how dodgy it can be for white women to speak about how "powerless" colonised women are to resist the aggressive sexism of colonised men... because seriously, in this day and age, that shit could get people killed.

[alias_sqbr]

I would suggest even more specific Australian issues and controversies to contextualise the issues. All the examples you've raised in your 'Feminism and racism' section are US examples, which kinda invites white people to dismiss anti-racism as being a "US-centric" perspective. Australia has its own history of sexualised racism, racist sexism, and racially dodgy feminism to talk about. I think US feminists/women of colour are capable of discussing these issues as they pertain to the USA, but we need a dialogue about Australia within Australia to really tackle them here.

Yes, I could not agree more, I've seen that "Oh, yes, sure there's racism in America but there's nothing like that here" attitude all over the place and it's infuriating.

Unfortunately, I haven't had very long to prepare this, and almost all the "WOC talking about her specific issues with the feminist movement" stuff I can find aimed at my and my audience's level (which is, lets face it, pretty basic) is american based. Most of the examples I do have I cribbed from your blog :) I think I'm going to have to make this panel very basic and then post more links and ideas etc to the community as I come across them (I know I've seen lots in the past which I didn't bookmark and can't remember very clearly), maybe do a more thorough version next year. Still, you're right, and I'll try to replace them with some good specific australian examples.

if you can, check out the book Talkin' Up To The White Women: Aboriginal Women and Feminism

Oh, that does look perfect. It's in the library system, so I'll reserve it next time I'm there, and if I'm very lucky will have a chance to read it by the con.

Ien Ang, Christina Ho, and Suvendrini Perera also discuss some of these issues in relation to immigrant women in Australia.

And see, I hadn't even heard of these women, so much for the research skills I learned during my Phd :/ Still! I will look them up and see what I can find.

recent Germaine Greer shenanigans

*googles 'Germain greer racist'*
Ew.
*finds much to read and think about*

Anyway, thankyou (a) For your wonderful blog and (b) for taking the time to give me some specific advice :)

[stephiepenguin.livejournal.com]

I love Ien Ang, she is awesome.

When I get home, I will check my bookshelves to see what I've got in terms of other authors to suggest/books to borrow/etc.

[alias_sqbr]

That would be awesome! But remember to keep in mind the limits of my lowly maths graduate brain :)

[ardhra]

Jackie Huggins' Sista Girl is even shorter than Moreton-Robinson's book, and probably more readily available. That has quite a few good essays in it as well.

[ardhra]

thankyou (a) For your wonderful blog and (b) for taking the time to give me some specific advice :)

No worries.

(a) I wish I had more time & energy to update it, but at the moment it's sort of falling by the wayside. :-( It's a pity, cos I actually did see my writing skills improve when I updated more often.

(b) Again, not a problem. Glad it was useful.

[alias_sqbr]

Just a note to say: I googled Ien Ang, Christina Ho, and Suvendrini Perera and found some really fantastic essays available online, so thanks again.

*is off to the library this evening*

Following the link from debunkingwhite

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

A lot of non-white people overseas use the term "people of colour" or "women of colour" etc, but like a lot of australians the word pings as skin-crawlingly racist to me, even though I know that in that context it's not.

I keep hitting problems with this. I know that there are British people who use and identify as 'people of colour', but a lot of the non-white friends I have really loathe the term, for various reasons, and some find it actively offensive/racist. So I have wound up using it less and less, even online, just because I feel really uncomfortable using it now. I can't find a replacement tho - I've got one friend who prefers 'black' as a catch all term - she's Asian, but finds it really empowering to refer to herself as 'black', but I know some people, especially in America, think it's ridiculous to refer to asian folk as 'black'. I've got another friend who dislikes all umbrella terms, as she thinks it's a racist concept in itself to lump these really varied experiences of race and identity into one category and creates a false dichotomy. But sometimes umbrella terms are needed.

So. Yeah. I've wound up feeling really unsure. I still use PoC online, but I've got these very ambivalent feelings about it, which I don't really know how to articulate. I think mostly I feel like I'm failing to listen to non-white people - actual real people I know, as opposed to very articulate strangers online - and imposing my own white views of how they should be spoken of. Yet I don't want to offend others by using phrases such as 'non-white' which I know some dislike because it makes the focus on white-as-norm.

So. Yeah. Argh!

Re: Following the link from debunkingwhite

[alias_sqbr]

Yes, it's (relatively) easy to respect people's wishes as to how they wish to be referred to individually, but much harder to listen to everyone at once when referring to a group of people.

I always try to pay attention to the context and if neccesary add a disclaimer that I'm aware the language is controversial (as I did here) For example, I feel pretty unconflicted about using POC in spaces like debunkingwhite where I know most if not all the non-white people prefer that term(*), and it's the accepted terminology...unless I'm talking specifically about non-white australians :/

I have yet to personally encounter any non-white people who dislike umbrella terms on principle, but I have encountered some who think I'm oversensitive about race, and I find it tricky to disagree without invalidating their experience and POV (there's something inherently skeevy about a white person claiming to know more about racism than a non-white one!)

These are very complex issues, and there are a lot of thorny ambiguous situations they bring up. I guess the best we can do is try not to be too rigid or single minded, but instead value everyone's experiences and take their opinions into account (even if we may not agree)

(*)And see, here I am referring to them as "non-white" because that's the "right" term for the australian-centered context of this post, even though the people I'm talking about would generally prefer "POC". Hmm.

Re: Following the link from debunkingwhite

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

I know a couple of people who dislike umbrella terms - the best explanation I once had given by an asian friend was that she felt it was just inappropriate - she was asian, but she had no real cultural ties to India, she's been given a fairly normal middle class English upbringing, and as a result tended to find it ridiculous that she was presumed, by these terms, to have more in common with a first generation immigrant from Zimbabwe than with a white middle class English person, when she feels different.

Re: Following the link from debunkingwhite

[alias_sqbr]

Yes, and I can understand that POV. Certainly it's important not to over generalise about people, we all have multiple identities and some may not matter as much to us as they do to others in the same group.

(I'm not sure that made sense. This cold has eaten my brain :))