The feisty gals of Supernatural

[sqbr]

So, I was annoyed by the lack of female roles in Supernatural Season 1. They all seemed to fit into traditional gender roles in a really limiting way, and none had any agency. But I was told Season 2 had some good female characters, specifically Jo and Ellen. I got the impression they were actually demon hunters themselves, which seemed like a nice change from victims/demons.

*WARNING: Vague but important spoilers follow for Season 3, mild for season 2*

I also encountered a lot of meta about how horribly sexist season 3 is, and lots of women saying "How could you do this to Jo and Ellen? They were so awesome! Now there's no good powerful, good female characters at all(*)". "Ok", I thought to myself, "so Season 2 will be a bit of a step up, but I might not like Season 3. I can live with that"

I did, however, keep in mind that some other women responded to these complaints with "Bah. The show was sexist in season 1, and got worse in season 2, and it's just more of the same now". And then I watched the first two episodes of Season 2.

And, yeah. Beth and Jo, the best examples of powerful women the show has to offer? Run a bar. For hunters. Who are men. Sometimes they offer advice. Or sex(**). And Ellen didn't choose this life, it was something her dead husband (a hunter) got her into.

I..just...that's it? That's the high it reaches before sinking lower? Hoo boy. According to Cam, while there are some female hunters later on they're all nameless women in refrigerators, and overall Every Single Woman in the show is eventually a victim or a villain (many of whom, afaict, act all sexy to Dean who then slaps them and calls them a bitch) Admittedly, a large proportion of the men end up as victims or villains too, but if it was bad enough for Cam to notice and be annoyed by it that doesn't bode well for my reaction.

I mean, I'm going to keep watching, but that's pretty bad for a modern show. It makes Heroes look good.

(*) Note: I don't know if they die, or turn evil, or just stop being awesome
(**) Having watched only one episode with them in they haven't actually offered sex to anyone, but Jo was making eyes at Dean and it was suggested that Ellen might have been involved with John, ie they were seen as potential sex objects the moment they were introduced

Comments

[kadeton.livejournal.com]

Supernatural is terrible: News at 11.

Supernatural is terrible

[trs80.ucc.asn.au (from livejournal.com)]

No, that's the news, and the film is at 11. (This being a saying from when tv news was still shot on film, and took time to be developed, so was shown later in the night).

Re: Supernatural is terrible

[kadeton.livejournal.com]

James is a pedant: News at 11.

Re: Supernatural is terrible

[penchaft.livejournal.com]

Who knew a post about Supernatural could lead to interesting stuff!

[alias_sqbr]

Yeah, I know, people said it would get better and like a naive fool I believed them...(Actually, it has been pretty good on other fronts. The first episode of season 2 is quite compelling)

[mothwentbad.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I don't think "slut" should have an arrow pointing toward "un-woman".

Is this flowchart yours, or did you steal it?

[alias_sqbr]

There's a line of logic where once a woman has transgressed in any way she no longer deserves the protection afforded to her sex, which is the sort of "un-woman" I meant. I was smooshing things together a bit, I'll admit.

And yes, mine.

[mothwentbad.livejournal.com]

Sweet.

[black-samvara.livejournal.com]

I would be willing to argue that the bit part women characters in S1 were often capable, interesting women with lives.

Jo and Ellen were the first recurring female characters and had both good and bad moments.

S3 women characters didn't do to well :(

[alias_sqbr]

Yes, while I didn't like the overall trend/tone some of the one-off s1 female characters weren't too bad. Actually, I liked the medium, I was quite happy she didn't die or turn out to be evil, at least so far :)

[edible-hat.livejournal.com]

Season 3 features a female "big bad" and another female character weidling a knife that can kill anything.

[alias_sqbr]

I'm less happy with any "women can be powerful" subtext which includes "..if they're evil". Still, I will have to wait and see before I can really say.

[velithya]

Ellen is really quite awesome. She might not have chosen the life she leads now initially, but she's the one that chose to continue to run the roadhouse, and she's definitely not a woman who lets others walk over her. Fandom loves loves Ellen. (also you use 'Beth' up there in one paragraph, did you mean Ellen?)

[alias_sqbr]

Sorry, I didn't make this at all clear: They both look like cool characters in and of themselves. The only reason I found them annoying was that I got the impression they were a counter-example to the "Women have no power/agency unless they're evil" thing, which they're not (not by themselves, anyway, though they're a step in the right direction), and if that is the most powerful position a woman can hold in that universe then I'm going to remain frustrated by the show.

Yes, Beth=Ellen, sorry. Me + names=bad.

[tevriel.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Ellen is awesome. I don't really want to spoil other things about the characters in the future, but neither Jo nor Ellen is really about sex, at all.

It may just be that I turn off filters somewhat because I love Supernatural and want to keep loving it, but I really don't find it offensive on the women front. I mean, yes, there are few women to whom bad things don't happen, but seriously, BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO EVERYONE.

And I'm not sure it is just that I turn off filters - I've tried watching for the alleged misogyny, and I really don't see it. The only episode in season 3 that really gave me a hive on that level was "Jus in Bello", and it was... well, Dean is an ass.

But not every woman is a sex object. (See characters like the chick in "Faith". That Dean is an ass... well, big shock. You'll note he's an ass in a RANGE of ways, and the fact that he doesn't quite treat women like real people fits neatly with the fact that he doesn't quite treat ANYONE who isn't part of his family (blood-related or not) quite like a real person. And he has deep self-esteem problems in play. It's just not that gratuitous.

[alias_sqbr]

Ah, see, I enjoy shows more if I turn the filters on, then I know what's bugging me and can isolate it in my head from the things I like and only watch when I feel able to do that. Learning to do this has allowed me to enjoy a lot more tv sff.

Certainly the show's mysogyny (such as it is) is one of those "it's not the specifics it's the pattern" things, which is very subjective.

I get the feeling that regardless of any sexism I'm going to go off the show due to character's going to a bad place(*) in general. Which isn't a flaw of the show, just a divergence from what I like to watch.

(*)Literally and figuratively, if the spoilers I've heard are anything to judge by :)

[kadeton.livejournal.com]

Supernatural is terrible: News at 11.

Supernatural is terrible

[trs80.ucc.asn.au (from livejournal.com)]

No, that's the news, and the film is at 11. (This being a saying from when tv news was still shot on film, and took time to be developed, so was shown later in the night).

Re: Supernatural is terrible

[kadeton.livejournal.com]

James is a pedant: News at 11.

Re: Supernatural is terrible

[penchaft.livejournal.com]

Who knew a post about Supernatural could lead to interesting stuff!

[alias_sqbr]

Yeah, I know, people said it would get better and like a naive fool I believed them...(Actually, it has been pretty good on other fronts. The first episode of season 2 is quite compelling)

[mothwentbad.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I don't think "slut" should have an arrow pointing toward "un-woman".

Is this flowchart yours, or did you steal it?

[alias_sqbr]

There's a line of logic where once a woman has transgressed in any way she no longer deserves the protection afforded to her sex, which is the sort of "un-woman" I meant. I was smooshing things together a bit, I'll admit.

And yes, mine.

[mothwentbad.livejournal.com]

Sweet.

[black-samvara.livejournal.com]

I would be willing to argue that the bit part women characters in S1 were often capable, interesting women with lives.

Jo and Ellen were the first recurring female characters and had both good and bad moments.

S3 women characters didn't do to well :(

[alias_sqbr]

Yes, while I didn't like the overall trend/tone some of the one-off s1 female characters weren't too bad. Actually, I liked the medium, I was quite happy she didn't die or turn out to be evil, at least so far :)

[edible-hat.livejournal.com]

Season 3 features a female "big bad" and another female character weidling a knife that can kill anything.

[alias_sqbr]

I'm less happy with any "women can be powerful" subtext which includes "..if they're evil". Still, I will have to wait and see before I can really say.

[velithya]

Ellen is really quite awesome. She might not have chosen the life she leads now initially, but she's the one that chose to continue to run the roadhouse, and she's definitely not a woman who lets others walk over her. Fandom loves loves Ellen. (also you use 'Beth' up there in one paragraph, did you mean Ellen?)

[alias_sqbr]

Sorry, I didn't make this at all clear: They both look like cool characters in and of themselves. The only reason I found them annoying was that I got the impression they were a counter-example to the "Women have no power/agency unless they're evil" thing, which they're not (not by themselves, anyway, though they're a step in the right direction), and if that is the most powerful position a woman can hold in that universe then I'm going to remain frustrated by the show.

Yes, Beth=Ellen, sorry. Me + names=bad.

[tevriel.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Ellen is awesome. I don't really want to spoil other things about the characters in the future, but neither Jo nor Ellen is really about sex, at all.

It may just be that I turn off filters somewhat because I love Supernatural and want to keep loving it, but I really don't find it offensive on the women front. I mean, yes, there are few women to whom bad things don't happen, but seriously, BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO EVERYONE.

And I'm not sure it is just that I turn off filters - I've tried watching for the alleged misogyny, and I really don't see it. The only episode in season 3 that really gave me a hive on that level was "Jus in Bello", and it was... well, Dean is an ass.

But not every woman is a sex object. (See characters like the chick in "Faith". That Dean is an ass... well, big shock. You'll note he's an ass in a RANGE of ways, and the fact that he doesn't quite treat women like real people fits neatly with the fact that he doesn't quite treat ANYONE who isn't part of his family (blood-related or not) quite like a real person. And he has deep self-esteem problems in play. It's just not that gratuitous.

[alias_sqbr]

Ah, see, I enjoy shows more if I turn the filters on, then I know what's bugging me and can isolate it in my head from the things I like and only watch when I feel able to do that. Learning to do this has allowed me to enjoy a lot more tv sff.

Certainly the show's mysogyny (such as it is) is one of those "it's not the specifics it's the pattern" things, which is very subjective.

I get the feeling that regardless of any sexism I'm going to go off the show due to character's going to a bad place(*) in general. Which isn't a flaw of the show, just a divergence from what I like to watch.

(*)Literally and figuratively, if the spoilers I've heard are anything to judge by :)