It's just not safe out there for a boy like you!

[sqbr]

EDIT: So this has turned out to be a controversial post (who'd have thought?) and I have way too much of a headache to deal with it right now. So I hope you don't all kill each other...

Via Hoyden about town we have: a post discussing the effect the fear of going out has on women with a lot of interesting comments.

First, it has many examples of the old White women trying to emphasise the evils of sexism by comparing it to racism trick. *sigh*(*)

But also, some of the commenters make a point I've been trying to articulate: the the problem is not that women are actually in more danger (since we're not), nor is it just that we're more scared. It's also that men's danger is minimised.

The general attitude is that women are safe at home/with friends but in EXTREME danger if we go out by ourselves, and if something does happen then it's probably partly our fault for putting ourselves in danger, and we'll suffer permanent emotional harm.
Men on the other hand can take care of themselves when they go out, are probably fairly safe, and if something does happen then it's not their fault and they'll get over it.

But in fact women are much LESS likely to be attacked than men (if more likely to be sexually assaulted/raped), and when we are assaulted (sexually or otherwise) it's generally by someone we know and at home. The emotional harm is true, but at the same time it is something women can rise above and deal with better than is often portrayed.
On the other hand, men are in more danger, in many cases can't take care of themselves (even a big guy isn't going to be able to save himself from a gang with knives or what have you), are more likely to have brought it upon themselves by picking a fight etc(**) (though certainly not always!), and can also be left with emotional issues. And men are raped much more often than you'd think.

But noone tells young men to stay home at night. Maybe they should. I know my brother got robbed a few times coming home late on the train and I think found it very distressing, while my mum spends all her time worrying about my sister and I who afaict have never been attacked by strangers (I've experienced minor sexual harassment, and I imagine she has too, but mine was in "safe" places like the library in the middle of the day)

Of course another point people made is that maybe the reason men get attacked more is because they go out more, so that women are still in more proportionate danger. Which may be true.

All in all this is why when I say I'm against "sexism" I don't mean "people picking on women". I mean our society's harmful attitudes to gender in general, whether they affect men or women (or, as here, both in different ways).

See also:
aussie violence stats
http://www.thisisnotaninvitationtorapeme.co.uk
page about the experience of male rape

It's important to note that I'm not saying violence against women isn't a big deal which needs to be fought against. I just don't think the attitudes people have about it are very helpful (mostly the people who are not actually interested in fighting it, since that's "just the way things are").

Oh, and not that I don't appreciatte you guys input in general anyway, but I am in particular interested in what the men on my flist think about this point since you're going to have a different perspective to me. How afraid are YOU to go out out night? And in case you're wondering: I am a bit self conscious going out alone at night etc, though I try not to let it control me.

(*)All the places I go to discuss racism have a hefty female contingent, so I've not been in a position to observe this claimed tendency for black men to minimise the effect of sexism, and given that all people suck I'm sure it does happen. Doesn't make it ok for us to do the reverse.
(**)EDIT: This came across entirely the wrong way, and takes away from my argument. See here for what I was *trying* to say.

Comments

[flyingblogspot.livejournal.com]

Feeling inarticulate today, but just wanted to say that this post is great.

This is exactly why I try not to restrict my decision-making with a fear of going out alone at night and so forth. Changing the way I live to comply with a socially constructed fear seems, to me, to be a far greater oppression than the actual statistical chance that something undesirable might happen to me.

[grahame.livejournal.com]

I'm more cautious when going out at night, especially if I'm not in a familiar area (eg. if I'm travelling.) At home I'm afraid to go out at night - that fear seems pretty strange to me.

If going to an area where I've been accosted by random unpleasant people at night before, I'll tend to be cautious. More likely, I'll just avoid that area. The same goes for pubs - if I've been accosted by randoms that are drunk and unpleasant about it, it counts heavily against the establishment and I'm unlikely to go back. IMHO that's the establishment's fault for failing to serve alcohol responsibly, although I suppose you get some people that are tools even without alcohol.

[alias_sqbr]

At home I'm afraid to go out at night - that fear seems pretty strange to me.

It doesn't seem so strange to me, but I'm a girl :)

[col-ki.livejournal.com]

men ... are more likely to have brought it upon themselves by picking a fight etc (**)

(**)I have never seen stats for this, but it seems like a safe generalisation, especially when you consider that most perpetrators of violence are men, and such men are likely going to get attacked back

Wow. I'm totally blown away by this assumption of yours and the attitude it reveals.

You're talking the false guilt that women are made to suffer for being attacks, and in the same discussion, heap some false guilt the other half of the population for good measure?

In answer to your original question: I'm never scared to go out by myself, but do get the jitters when sharing an almost empty street with a stranger.

[alias_sqbr]

Argh, I expressed myself very badly. You may still be offended by my actual point, but I didn't mean to say that men are, in general, at fault for being attacked. But I think there are a very small set of people who do things like pick fights and thus are partly at fault if they get hurt as a result. And more of those people are men (since more violent people are men(*)) and so while almost all victims of assault or attack (regardless of gender) are innocent of any blame, statistically speaking the chance that a man brought his attack on himself (while very low) is higher than the chance that a woman did. It's a nit-picky distinction which has nothing to do with most people.

I agree that in general victim blaming is bad. I was trying to highlight the absurdity of women being blamed and men not, but what I'm arguing for is noone getting blamed(**), not for men to be blamed. That said, I think you're right that that's not the subtext that comes across, so since it's not a vital part of my argument I shall strike it out (while leaving it there so your statement makes sense)

Sorry for sounding like I think men bring this sort of thing on themselves, while that's not what I meant I imagine it wasn't a very nice thing to read :(

(*)Which is NOT the same as saying that men in general are violent
(**)except that small subset, who are small enough to be irrelevant to the point I'm making. Also noone ever deserves to be sexually assaulted, I just meant being physically attacked.

[lauredhel.livejournal.com]

I'm very wary of the "Oh, stranger-rape/sexual assault is a myth" approach to talking about this problem. Stranger rape and stranger sexual assault is not slightly a myth; it happens all the time. It's just that date/partner/husband-rape and sexual assault is _even more common_.

I've been sexually harassed in public by strangers more times than I can count, and it's not my imagination. I've also been sexually assaulted (not raped) by strangers several times. The fact that people I know have done it also doesn't make the prospect of strangers doing it (or much, much worse) any less terrifying.

[kadeton.livejournal.com]

This is a really interesting point, but it makes me wonder: What is it about strangers that is so terrifying? Statistically, it seems pretty obvious that you are more likely to be sexually assaulted by people you know, and yet most people are far more scared of strangers.

Obviously, if you were scared of your friends, they wouldn't be your friends for long... but you have so much more reason to be scared of them. I think it would be very unwise to argue that friends are more worthy of trust, given the evidence.

The only thing I can think of is that all those campaigns aimed at children regarding "stranger danger" really worked, and now we've all grown up with the idea that strangers are to be hated and feared. I think that basically sucks... most people are nice, even if you don't know them.

The "hate and fear the other" sentiment can't help with racism (or other prejudices) either.

[alias_sqbr]

Oh, yes, it's not a myth. I was unfortunately figuring out my point as I went along (still am :)), and only realised how my post could come across as dismissing the real danger women are in at the end. I guess my point is that people over simplify the situation: women are Totally Unsafe alone at night and Totally Safe at home, and if they choose to put themselves in the unsafe category it's their own fault. When in fact we're unsafe everywhere, and so are men, the world is a dangerous place. Which is not to say we're wrong to be afraid, or cautious, but women shouldn't be forced to be afraid to go out at night, and told that if we're not we're asking for trouble.

If that makes any sense :)

[kadeton.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I think the difference is in the consequences. Getting bashed up is honestly not that big a deal... you don't want it to happen to you, but there is a far lower risk of permanent psychological damage. Getting raped, on the other hand, seems to be profoundly emotionally scarring. You basically can't compare them directly.

I find it quite understandable that women are warned off going out alone. That doesn't mean I agree with it; I think there are a lot of things that can be done to minimise any risk, and it's not worth letting fear rule your life.

See also Colm's comments about blaming victims. I realise that isn't quite what you intended, but I think it's revealing all the same. Again, though, I don't think it's particularly logical to compare "dressing like a slut" and "acting like a dickhead" as invitations to assault.

The posts you linked were an interesting read.

[col-ki.livejournal.com]

To clarify, I meant more "smoozing free drinks under false pretences" than "dressing like a slut".

I've seen a girl move between the 5 guys I was with at a club, flirting and whispering and then flat out asking for a drink from each in turn, before her boyfriend finally found her, glared at us, and walked off.

That is the minority who unfairly generates the "had it coming" generalisation, just like the rude yobbo male. I say unfairly, because blaming victims is shit, even if they are provoking their attackers.

[out-fox.livejournal.com]

Agreed that being bashed and being raped aren't comparable experiences, but nor is it hands down that one is worse than the other re: trauma.

I mean, I always say I'd rather be bashed again than raped, because I'm conscious that people really underestimate what a crime rape is. But then I remember people who, unlike me, didn't escape bashings without brain damage...so I don't know. I think what constitutes trauma is very specific to the individual.

I have my youth education googles on now though; because while some people need education around sexual assualt to feel OK to say that they were traumatized and it's totally as serious a form of violence as bashing ...others need education to say that even though they *didn't * feel traumatised, they "just felt numb, it's not so bad" ..that non-consent and expecting sex to feel "numb" for someone else's gratification is still abuse and they can demand better BEFORE it gets to the stage of physical threats. Like that violence takes many forms and the focus is on what feels positive not like any kind of erasure or violence.

/ends possibly OT thoughts

[alias_sqbr]

Yeah, I hadn't really thought through the implications I was making when I made this post. You guys comments have given me food for thought which I am still digesting (thus the super-belated replies)

I guess my point is: men and women both have horrible things happen to us in all sorts of situations (home/public, from friends/strangers, at night/day etc) And while the proportions and nastiness of these things vary, on the whole it makes no sense for female victims who go out at night alone to be blamed but noone else, or for women to be told to fear going out at night but to feel safe everywhere else (and men told to always feel safe), since apart from the fact that victim blaming is bad in general, "being a woman who goes out at night alone" actually doesn't make you that much more in danger, and people in all the other categories are actually pretty unsafe too.

[nico-wolfwood.livejournal.com]

Just a few thoughts - I think much of the 'home is safe, but out is dangerous' is situational. My first job involved walking around until 9 pm knocking on doors, often in some fairly dodgy Perth neighborhoods, and I rarely felt that I was in danger. Even then it was mostly when I was in someones back garden and they were being a little too pressing. I believe that was a combination of several factors: knowing there were other people working in the area even if they couldn't hear/see me if I got into trouble, wearing a suit, knowing that people were home etc. If I was 'alone' (without transport/any friendly faces) and wearing non-work clothing I would have felt much more insecure.

As an example: If I was door knocking at night and found out my team members had gone home without me I would be far less worried than if I was leaving a party in the same area and found that whoever had promised me transport had already departed.

Secondly - I'm currently living in Singapore and the attitude towards going out at night is quite different. The assumption is that you're safe and I wouldn't think twice about walking around alone at night here.

Lastly, I've been told by a male that he was careful about the areas he went after dark in Berkley and NY but he wouldn't think twice about going anywhere in Singapore after dark even if it was an area populated by dodgy bars & gang members.

[alias_sqbr]

As an example: If I was door knocking at night and found out my team members had gone home without me I would be far less worried than if I was leaving a party in the same area and found that whoever had promised me transport had already departed.

That's really interesting.

Secondly - I'm currently living in Singapore and the attitude towards going out at night is quite different. The assumption is that you're safe and I wouldn't think twice about walking around alone at night here.

Yes, I felt a lot safer at night in Singapore. And I feel safer in Perth city than I do in the suburbs. There isn't that "Well, what sort of people are going to be out at this time of night and do I want to encounter then?" thing, since being out at that place and time is a normal thing lots of people do.

[flyingblogspot.livejournal.com]

Feeling inarticulate today, but just wanted to say that this post is great.

This is exactly why I try not to restrict my decision-making with a fear of going out alone at night and so forth. Changing the way I live to comply with a socially constructed fear seems, to me, to be a far greater oppression than the actual statistical chance that something undesirable might happen to me.

[grahame.livejournal.com]

I'm more cautious when going out at night, especially if I'm not in a familiar area (eg. if I'm travelling.) At home I'm afraid to go out at night - that fear seems pretty strange to me.

If going to an area where I've been accosted by random unpleasant people at night before, I'll tend to be cautious. More likely, I'll just avoid that area. The same goes for pubs - if I've been accosted by randoms that are drunk and unpleasant about it, it counts heavily against the establishment and I'm unlikely to go back. IMHO that's the establishment's fault for failing to serve alcohol responsibly, although I suppose you get some people that are tools even without alcohol.

[alias_sqbr]

At home I'm afraid to go out at night - that fear seems pretty strange to me.

It doesn't seem so strange to me, but I'm a girl :)

[col-ki.livejournal.com]

men ... are more likely to have brought it upon themselves by picking a fight etc (**)

(**)I have never seen stats for this, but it seems like a safe generalisation, especially when you consider that most perpetrators of violence are men, and such men are likely going to get attacked back

Wow. I'm totally blown away by this assumption of yours and the attitude it reveals.

You're talking the false guilt that women are made to suffer for being attacks, and in the same discussion, heap some false guilt the other half of the population for good measure?

In answer to your original question: I'm never scared to go out by myself, but do get the jitters when sharing an almost empty street with a stranger.

[alias_sqbr]

Argh, I expressed myself very badly. You may still be offended by my actual point, but I didn't mean to say that men are, in general, at fault for being attacked. But I think there are a very small set of people who do things like pick fights and thus are partly at fault if they get hurt as a result. And more of those people are men (since more violent people are men(*)) and so while almost all victims of assault or attack (regardless of gender) are innocent of any blame, statistically speaking the chance that a man brought his attack on himself (while very low) is higher than the chance that a woman did. It's a nit-picky distinction which has nothing to do with most people.

I agree that in general victim blaming is bad. I was trying to highlight the absurdity of women being blamed and men not, but what I'm arguing for is noone getting blamed(**), not for men to be blamed. That said, I think you're right that that's not the subtext that comes across, so since it's not a vital part of my argument I shall strike it out (while leaving it there so your statement makes sense)

Sorry for sounding like I think men bring this sort of thing on themselves, while that's not what I meant I imagine it wasn't a very nice thing to read :(

(*)Which is NOT the same as saying that men in general are violent
(**)except that small subset, who are small enough to be irrelevant to the point I'm making. Also noone ever deserves to be sexually assaulted, I just meant being physically attacked.

[lauredhel.livejournal.com]

I'm very wary of the "Oh, stranger-rape/sexual assault is a myth" approach to talking about this problem. Stranger rape and stranger sexual assault is not slightly a myth; it happens all the time. It's just that date/partner/husband-rape and sexual assault is _even more common_.

I've been sexually harassed in public by strangers more times than I can count, and it's not my imagination. I've also been sexually assaulted (not raped) by strangers several times. The fact that people I know have done it also doesn't make the prospect of strangers doing it (or much, much worse) any less terrifying.

[kadeton.livejournal.com]

This is a really interesting point, but it makes me wonder: What is it about strangers that is so terrifying? Statistically, it seems pretty obvious that you are more likely to be sexually assaulted by people you know, and yet most people are far more scared of strangers.

Obviously, if you were scared of your friends, they wouldn't be your friends for long... but you have so much more reason to be scared of them. I think it would be very unwise to argue that friends are more worthy of trust, given the evidence.

The only thing I can think of is that all those campaigns aimed at children regarding "stranger danger" really worked, and now we've all grown up with the idea that strangers are to be hated and feared. I think that basically sucks... most people are nice, even if you don't know them.

The "hate and fear the other" sentiment can't help with racism (or other prejudices) either.

[alias_sqbr]

Oh, yes, it's not a myth. I was unfortunately figuring out my point as I went along (still am :)), and only realised how my post could come across as dismissing the real danger women are in at the end. I guess my point is that people over simplify the situation: women are Totally Unsafe alone at night and Totally Safe at home, and if they choose to put themselves in the unsafe category it's their own fault. When in fact we're unsafe everywhere, and so are men, the world is a dangerous place. Which is not to say we're wrong to be afraid, or cautious, but women shouldn't be forced to be afraid to go out at night, and told that if we're not we're asking for trouble.

If that makes any sense :)

[kadeton.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I think the difference is in the consequences. Getting bashed up is honestly not that big a deal... you don't want it to happen to you, but there is a far lower risk of permanent psychological damage. Getting raped, on the other hand, seems to be profoundly emotionally scarring. You basically can't compare them directly.

I find it quite understandable that women are warned off going out alone. That doesn't mean I agree with it; I think there are a lot of things that can be done to minimise any risk, and it's not worth letting fear rule your life.

See also Colm's comments about blaming victims. I realise that isn't quite what you intended, but I think it's revealing all the same. Again, though, I don't think it's particularly logical to compare "dressing like a slut" and "acting like a dickhead" as invitations to assault.

The posts you linked were an interesting read.

[col-ki.livejournal.com]

To clarify, I meant more "smoozing free drinks under false pretences" than "dressing like a slut".

I've seen a girl move between the 5 guys I was with at a club, flirting and whispering and then flat out asking for a drink from each in turn, before her boyfriend finally found her, glared at us, and walked off.

That is the minority who unfairly generates the "had it coming" generalisation, just like the rude yobbo male. I say unfairly, because blaming victims is shit, even if they are provoking their attackers.

[nico-wolfwood.livejournal.com]

Just a few thoughts - I think much of the 'home is safe, but out is dangerous' is situational. My first job involved walking around until 9 pm knocking on doors, often in some fairly dodgy Perth neighborhoods, and I rarely felt that I was in danger. Even then it was mostly when I was in someones back garden and they were being a little too pressing. I believe that was a combination of several factors: knowing there were other people working in the area even if they couldn't hear/see me if I got into trouble, wearing a suit, knowing that people were home etc. If I was 'alone' (without transport/any friendly faces) and wearing non-work clothing I would have felt much more insecure.

As an example: If I was door knocking at night and found out my team members had gone home without me I would be far less worried than if I was leaving a party in the same area and found that whoever had promised me transport had already departed.

Secondly - I'm currently living in Singapore and the attitude towards going out at night is quite different. The assumption is that you're safe and I wouldn't think twice about walking around alone at night here.

Lastly, I've been told by a male that he was careful about the areas he went after dark in Berkley and NY but he wouldn't think twice about going anywhere in Singapore after dark even if it was an area populated by dodgy bars & gang members.

[alias_sqbr]

As an example: If I was door knocking at night and found out my team members had gone home without me I would be far less worried than if I was leaving a party in the same area and found that whoever had promised me transport had already departed.

That's really interesting.

Secondly - I'm currently living in Singapore and the attitude towards going out at night is quite different. The assumption is that you're safe and I wouldn't think twice about walking around alone at night here.

Yes, I felt a lot safer at night in Singapore. And I feel safer in Perth city than I do in the suburbs. There isn't that "Well, what sort of people are going to be out at this time of night and do I want to encounter then?" thing, since being out at that place and time is a normal thing lots of people do.