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EDIT: So this has turned out to be a controversial post (who'd have thought?) and I have way too much of a headache to deal with it right now. So I hope you don't all kill each other...
Via Hoyden about town we have: a post discussing the effect the fear of going out has on women with a lot of interesting comments.
First, it has many examples of the old White women trying to emphasise the evils of sexism by comparing it to racism trick. *sigh*(*)
But also, some of the commenters make a point I've been trying to articulate: the the problem is not that women are actually in more danger (since we're not), nor is it just that we're more scared. It's also that men's danger is minimised.
The general attitude is that women are safe at home/with friends but in EXTREME danger if we go out by ourselves, and if something does happen then it's probably partly our fault for putting ourselves in danger, and we'll suffer permanent emotional harm.
Men on the other hand can take care of themselves when they go out, are probably fairly safe, and if something does happen then it's not their fault and they'll get over it.
But in fact women are much LESS likely to be attacked than men (if more likely to be sexually assaulted/raped), and when we are assaulted (sexually or otherwise) it's generally by someone we know and at home. The emotional harm is true, but at the same time it is something women can rise above and deal with better than is often portrayed.
On the other hand, men are in more danger, in many cases can't take care of themselves (even a big guy isn't going to be able to save himself from a gang with knives or what have you),are more likely to have brought it upon themselves by picking a fight etc(**) (though certainly not always!), and can also be left with emotional issues. And men are raped much more often than you'd think.
But noone tells young men to stay home at night. Maybe they should. I know my brother got robbed a few times coming home late on the train and I think found it very distressing, while my mum spends all her time worrying about my sister and I who afaict have never been attacked by strangers (I've experienced minor sexual harassment, and I imagine she has too, but mine was in "safe" places like the library in the middle of the day)
Of course another point people made is that maybe the reason men get attacked more is because they go out more, so that women are still in more proportionate danger. Which may be true.
All in all this is why when I say I'm against "sexism" I don't mean "people picking on women". I mean our society's harmful attitudes to gender in general, whether they affect men or women (or, as here, both in different ways).
See also:
aussie violence stats
http://www.thisisnotaninvitationtorapeme.co.uk
page about the experience of male rape
It's important to note that I'm not saying violence against women isn't a big deal which needs to be fought against. I just don't think the attitudes people have about it are very helpful (mostly the people who are not actually interested in fighting it, since that's "just the way things are").
Oh, and not that I don't appreciatte you guys input in general anyway, but I am in particular interested in what the men on my flist think about this point since you're going to have a different perspective to me. How afraid are YOU to go out out night? And in case you're wondering: I am a bit self conscious going out alone at night etc, though I try not to let it control me.
(*)All the places I go to discuss racism have a hefty female contingent, so I've not been in a position to observe this claimed tendency for black men to minimise the effect of sexism, and given that all people suck I'm sure it does happen. Doesn't make it ok for us to do the reverse.
(**)EDIT: This came across entirely the wrong way, and takes away from my argument. See here for what I was *trying* to say.
Via Hoyden about town we have: a post discussing the effect the fear of going out has on women with a lot of interesting comments.
First, it has many examples of the old White women trying to emphasise the evils of sexism by comparing it to racism trick. *sigh*(*)
But also, some of the commenters make a point I've been trying to articulate: the the problem is not that women are actually in more danger (since we're not), nor is it just that we're more scared. It's also that men's danger is minimised.
The general attitude is that women are safe at home/with friends but in EXTREME danger if we go out by ourselves, and if something does happen then it's probably partly our fault for putting ourselves in danger, and we'll suffer permanent emotional harm.
Men on the other hand can take care of themselves when they go out, are probably fairly safe, and if something does happen then it's not their fault and they'll get over it.
But in fact women are much LESS likely to be attacked than men (if more likely to be sexually assaulted/raped), and when we are assaulted (sexually or otherwise) it's generally by someone we know and at home. The emotional harm is true, but at the same time it is something women can rise above and deal with better than is often portrayed.
On the other hand, men are in more danger, in many cases can't take care of themselves (even a big guy isn't going to be able to save himself from a gang with knives or what have you),
But noone tells young men to stay home at night. Maybe they should. I know my brother got robbed a few times coming home late on the train and I think found it very distressing, while my mum spends all her time worrying about my sister and I who afaict have never been attacked by strangers (I've experienced minor sexual harassment, and I imagine she has too, but mine was in "safe" places like the library in the middle of the day)
Of course another point people made is that maybe the reason men get attacked more is because they go out more, so that women are still in more proportionate danger. Which may be true.
All in all this is why when I say I'm against "sexism" I don't mean "people picking on women". I mean our society's harmful attitudes to gender in general, whether they affect men or women (or, as here, both in different ways).
See also:
aussie violence stats
http://www.thisisnotaninvitationtorapeme.co.uk
page about the experience of male rape
It's important to note that I'm not saying violence against women isn't a big deal which needs to be fought against. I just don't think the attitudes people have about it are very helpful (mostly the people who are not actually interested in fighting it, since that's "just the way things are").
Oh, and not that I don't appreciatte you guys input in general anyway, but I am in particular interested in what the men on my flist think about this point since you're going to have a different perspective to me. How afraid are YOU to go out out night? And in case you're wondering: I am a bit self conscious going out alone at night etc, though I try not to let it control me.
(*)All the places I go to discuss racism have a hefty female contingent, so I've not been in a position to observe this claimed tendency for black men to minimise the effect of sexism, and given that all people suck I'm sure it does happen. Doesn't make it ok for us to do the reverse.
(**)EDIT: This came across entirely the wrong way, and takes away from my argument. See here for what I was *trying* to say.
no subject
I find it quite understandable that women are warned off going out alone. That doesn't mean I agree with it; I think there are a lot of things that can be done to minimise any risk, and it's not worth letting fear rule your life.
See also Colm's comments about blaming victims. I realise that isn't quite what you intended, but I think it's revealing all the same. Again, though, I don't think it's particularly logical to compare "dressing like a slut" and "acting like a dickhead" as invitations to assault.
The posts you linked were an interesting read.
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I've seen a girl move between the 5 guys I was with at a club, flirting and whispering and then flat out asking for a drink from each in turn, before her boyfriend finally found her, glared at us, and walked off.
That is the minority who unfairly generates the "had it coming" generalisation, just like the rude yobbo male. I say unfairly, because blaming victims is shit, even if they are provoking their attackers.
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I heard on the radio just last week about guys who get their girlfriends to dance alone and flirt with strangers, so they can come in and smash them for "messing with their girl".
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Or is it that some other hypothetical people think she "had it coming", and you're sitting here tying yourself in knots trying to empathise with those people?
Edit: re-reading, I suspect it's the latter. If that's the case, you really can stop bothering. It isn't doing you or rape victims any favours, and IMO it's a big ol' waste of time.
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It might be worth re-reading this sentence fragment, in an effort to re-centre the discussion:
While there may be some discussion to be had on the second half of that sentence, you are both in total agreement on the central concept "Never blame the victim."
In fact, this has been col_ki's point all along - it is unjust to blame men for being assaulted, in the same way it is unjust to blame women for being sexually assaulted. Whether the consequences of the respective assaults are equivalent is entirely beside his point. Which is: Blaming the victim is bad.
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I mean, I always say I'd rather be bashed again than raped, because I'm conscious that people really underestimate what a crime rape is. But then I remember people who, unlike me, didn't escape bashings without brain damage...so I don't know. I think what constitutes trauma is very specific to the individual.
I have my youth education googles on now though; because while some people need education around sexual assualt to feel OK to say that they were traumatized and it's totally as serious a form of violence as bashing ...others need education to say that even though they *didn't * feel traumatised, they "just felt numb, it's not so bad" ..that non-consent and expecting sex to feel "numb" for someone else's gratification is still abuse and they can demand better BEFORE it gets to the stage of physical threats. Like that violence takes many forms and the focus is on what feels positive not like any kind of erasure or violence.
/ends possibly OT thoughts
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Obviously being raped or sexually assaulted is a whole other thing, and I don't mean to minimise it. If I had instead been repeatedly sexually attacked as a child I'd have ended up much more screwed up. I just think that being bashed isn't a minor a thing as people make out, especially given how much more likely it is.
(*)Most of the relevant bullies were female, so I can't see that my experience would have been much different if I was an equivalently wimpy boy. Admittedly, my attitude as an adult is going to be very influenced by having grown up as female, and I may be doing a poor job of imagining what it's like for guys.
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This reminds me of, the issue of intimidation as being both;
a] a form of violence in it self [or at least territorial pissing for dominance] and
b]a pre-cursor to more physical violence.
This is my stumbling point in anti-sexual assault awareness, because despite my attachment to the 101 rape-is-a-crime it just needs repeating again-again-again ...I find that people often distinguish between crimes where one can see the wound [bashings] or not [both rape and intimidation ]
Which is where I get conflicted' because my rabid feminist anti-sexual assault awareness self is like...bring the unapologetic demands to recognize the crime...but my "actually people experience violence in so many ways" self is like....OK, tell me where you are at and lets take it from there...
This also, for me, goes back to class. Because in communities of poverty, a social norm can be a default attitude of "life is tough and sometimes people will be tough to you SUCK IT UP AND BE STRONG"
My class politics on that are; I love that people can be frank about hardship, it can actually be empowering to be able to get to the point already. But my anti-violence politics are like, I hate that boys are being raised to think that, macho intimidation is the norm of what it is to "be a man" and erasure of the self to aggression and sexual intimidation is just "girl stuff to not make whimpy drama about" for women.
I had a point here about dykes and machismo and being expected to fight boys more than some whimpy boys and girls with boyfriends were and this nauncing my views on masculine privilege..but I forget it.
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It took me a good two years to realise I was being bullied at my classy girls highschool because noone hit me and I was too shy and awkward to realise I was being shunned. Doesn't mean it wasn't nasty, or incredibly hurtful to my friends who were more entrenched in that world.
But go too far down that road and you let people make too many excuses for their actions and nothing gets better.
So, in short: HMM.
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I guess my point is: men and women both have horrible things happen to us in all sorts of situations (home/public, from friends/strangers, at night/day etc) And while the proportions and nastiness of these things vary, on the whole it makes no sense for female victims who go out at night alone to be blamed but noone else, or for women to be told to fear going out at night but to feel safe everywhere else (and men told to always feel safe), since apart from the fact that victim blaming is bad in general, "being a woman who goes out at night alone" actually doesn't make you that much more in danger, and people in all the other categories are actually pretty unsafe too.