A change from politics...

[sqbr]

I've been pondering doing one of these for a while, but wasn't sure I'd get the wording right. Since it worked so well on his lj, I've decided to completely steal the language of angriest's recent post instead(*).

1. Tell me your religious beliefs. It can be as simple as "I am an X" or it can be a lengthy paragraph if you like. If you feel your religious and/or spiritual beliefs are private, either don't reply or leave a note saying as much.
2. If you want to reply to something someone else has written, feel free - particularly if you want to ask them a question about the religion you've always wanted to ask but have never been able to, or felt comfortable enough to.
3. This is one of the biggies: if someone asks you a question and you don't feel comfortable answering it, do not feel obliged to answer. Either don't reply at all, or drop a quick reply saying "I don't really want to answer that".
4. Religious intolerance will not be tolerated. I'm aiming this particularly at the aggressive atheists who seem to get their kicks scoring points, but the rule applies in any direction.

I know a lot of you are on both flists, I decided to do it now while it's still fresh in your heads. You are quite welcome to repeat/post a link to your comment over there! And yes fred_mouse I know you were also planning on stealing his idea, but, well, there's no reason it can't be stolen multiple times :D

(*)And yes, I checked it was ok. Don't want to be sued for copyright violation by the big mean famous writer :)

Comments

[alias_sqbr]

So I've tried explaining my religious beliefs a couple of times (Two good examples being here and here) and as you can see am pretty much incapable of not going totally tl;dr, but briefly (ha ha):

Strictly speaking I'm an agnostic, since there are certain religious/supernatural etc things I think could be true (though I tend to think they're not) But most of the time when people say "Are you an atheist?" they mean "Are you certain the christian god doesn't exist?" to which I can say "Yes, definitely", so I tend to say I'm an atheist.

That said I think there's a lot going on the world people don't understand, and see no reason why it's fair for me to assume that I'm 100% lucid and all the religious people are deluded/fooling themselves etc, so think it's not impossible that there's something those people are connecting with I'm just not getting.

[penchaft.livejournal.com]

Atheist.

[alias_sqbr]

I am shocked. Shocked I say!

[evil-megz.livejournal.com]

It's interesting although completely understandable that on the one hand you allow people an open forum to express their religious beliefs, and on the other you insist people with a particular belief (that religion is bad) don't fully express it. I know ultimately atheists are welcome here to discuss their own beliefs and the restriction is on them abusing other people for their beliefs... but when it comes down to it nobody can really express their own beliefs without the implication that they think all conflicting beliefs are wrong. I'm not arguing with the restriction, since the old religious debate is so bleh, it is just very difficult to find the line between religious opinion and religious intolerance.

I say all this largely because, well, I am quite religiously intolerant, and I consider my beliefs against religion to be a defining characteristic of my own religious beliefs. I am entirely atheist, excusing my knowledge that there is no such thing as knowledge and I cannot actually know anything and thus am technically agnostic about everything including the sky's blueness and my own existence.

The only thing that stops me actively taking a stance against religion (beyond just attempting to point out its flaws every now and then) is that a person's religious beliefs are not the entirety of that person. I'm not going to abuse somebody for being religious because in the vast majority of cases they are an otherwise good person and do not deserve it. It's like somebody who, say, is a pretty good person but litters. You think their littering is wrong and you may attempt to change their opinion on the matter, but you will still be friends with them and treat them with respect.

(If anybody wants to discuss with me why I am atheist and religiously intolerant, I suggest we take it elsewhere)

[alias_sqbr]

Yes, and I did have a think about that. I mean I think saying "I think religious people are wrong" is ok, what I'm trying to avoid is someone saying "I'm religious" and someone else replying "YOU'RE WRONG". Same way as saying "I think you need to do *blah* to go to heaven" is ok, but not commenting to you or I saying "But you need to do *blah* or you won't go to heaven!"

But yes, it's a very hard line to draw. I think I went too far the other way, have removed my edit and left the text as angriest wrote it.

[lauredhel.livejournal.com]

I'm an atheist.

As I said there, I believe intensely in the separation of Church and State, and also believe that so long as we continue to fail at that (and we are failing), there can be no true, mutual religious/spiritual tolerance.

Atheists are angry because of Christianist hegemony that interferes with our human rights. To me, telling us not to be angry is like telling feminists to be nicer.

Asking us not to go out of our way to be meanyheaded to individuals who are minding their own business is, obviously, just fine.

[alias_sqbr]

I believe intensely in the separation of Church and State, and also believe that so long as we continue to fail at that (and we are failing), there can be no true, mutual religious/spiritual tolerance.

Yes, and being angry about that is I think completely understandable. It makes me pretty angry sometimes, though I'm as likely to get angry on behalf of religious non-christians as atheists. (Well, apart from the genuinely "Pro all religions but anti-atheism" crap which assumes everyone has a "higher power" e.g. in * Anonymous or "The Artists way". Though I guess that probably excludes some religions too like animism. Maybe?)

It's the assumption (which you're not making, but I have seen other people make) that every religious person (or every christian, etc) is in favour of theocratic hegemony and thus as an individual worthy of anger which is the problem. I guess the reason I get so annoyed by it is that I got HEAPS of crap from my atheist friends when I was a left-wing, pro-science, pro-separation-of-church-and-state christian, and this actually made me stay christian longer since it seemed the more open minded option. Unfortunately I can't think of a way to say "Don't be an intolerant atheist" etc which keeps the genuinely mean spirited atheists in line without making the decent-but-justifiably-angry atheists feel like they're being told to shut up.

[elaran.livejournal.com]

I have been going through an 'I don't believe there is a God' phase for the past few years. But when it came down to it, if someone asked what religion I was, I would say Hindu because, well. It's a cultural thing? I dunno, currently I just avoid thinking much about religion and where I stand on it [for me - don't really care about anyone else cos I do believe that religion&faith is something that's between you and whatever deity you believe in and if you don't believe, no skin off my back but no one gets to tell me that what I believe or don't believe in terms of religion is wrong or that doing so makes me a lesser person].

I agree with lauredhel about separation of Church and State.

I kinda posted about religion before. (http://elaran.livejournal.com/350067.html)

[alias_sqbr]

Mm, yes, I think we discussed this on my last post about religion (I decided I needed another one since the only people to reply to that one were at least kind of atheist which I assumed wasn't entirely representative :))

[mandragora2003.livejournal.com]

Having thought about this for.... oh, minutes, I've come to the conclusion that I believe in people. (Yes! They do exist!)

As in; Human nature; humane and otherwise. I think that there are forms of human nature that I prefer, and would hope to emulate myself. I have also somehow retained the happy belief that other people have similar thought processes. By and large, most people try to do what they think is the "right" thing to do. If that impacts on me, I reserve the right to whinge about it; otherwise, I think other people have the right to believe whatever they want to. This probably means that I am insane, or at least deluded.

An awful lot of people chose expediency over altruism.

I cherish a hope that karma/ cosmic balance/ justice has a basis in reality.

I would rather be remembered as a nice person than as a brilliant bastard.

Still, I figure it'll all end up okay in the end, one way or the other.

So possibly my best tag would be "spiritual" rather than "religious". Definitely "optimist". That said, I trend towards Catholicism.

[alias_sqbr]

No they don't! You're all figments of my imagination!!!

*cough* Sorry, didn't mean to assault you with my beliefs there :)

Anyway, thankyou for replying, I was a little fuzzy on what you believed. I do remember the trend to at least the catholic version of the Lords Prayer from school :)

[nico-wolfwood.livejournal.com]

Protestant Christian of no particular denomination. I don't believe in the Bible as the word of God or that the Church (any church) is able to dictate my own spiritual beliefs however. I believe that it is, my personal responsibility to define my relationship with a higher power/God.

[alias_sqbr]

Thankyou.

[flyingblogspot.livejournal.com]

The short answer is 'atheist' but the short answer isn't very interesting. I shall add some sprinkles and whipped cream on the top:

- Seventeen years of Catholic upbringing and schooling; after rejecting that, it's only been in the last couple of years that I've come to a kind of peace with the idea that one can be 'culturally Catholic' without being theistic. (It's not an idea I see very much among Catholics, although it sees common among my Jewish friends.)

- I believe that theism derives from an human tendency to anthropomophise a mind-bogglingly huge and complex universe into something more cognitively manageable. In this, I suppose, I have a lot in common with panthiests.

- My personal spiritual practice is fluid, and vaguely totemic, as anyone who has seen my tattoos will attest. I struggle to find the words to explain this without sounding totally mad, but my deer god and cat goddess are best understood as parts of myself - constructs or archetypes perhaps - through which I process the universe. I find it useful to have guides when I'm meditating and they do the job.

[alias_sqbr]

I think mandragora2003 has a similar catholic-themed-not-catholicism. I have a very protestant themed atheism, I guess, though it's not quite the same thing.

I believe that theism derives from an human tendency to anthropomophise a mind-bogglingly huge and complex universe into something more cognitively manageable. In this, I suppose, I have a lot in common with panthiests

Same.

I'm really out of it, so hopefully this makes sense.

[greteldragon.livejournal.com]

I've been trying to work this out in my head for quite awhile.

I mean to start with I'm pretty strongly agnostic. We don't have all the information, so we'll probably never _know_ what's out there. Current scientific theory tells us that its pretty unlikely, but scientific theories change as we learn and discover more. So *shrugs* telling us science says there is no god, always did seem pretty petty and missing the point to me. Religion is more than about whether or not the is a god, I think.

I do however have a very strong ethical and belief system, it changes over time, but its something I stick to, study and use to try to make myself a better person. vegetus mentioned that being vegan was the main part of her beliefs, I wouldn't go as far as this (partly in that I'm 'only' vegetarian, but also I feel there's more to my beliefs than my eating habits/lifestyle). Still being vegetarian, is certainly the main thing people think when it comes to this, its easily the most visible.

My family seems to be a mixture of Anglican and atheist though. Dad doesn't believe there's anything out there, and while his parents do a lot of volunteer work which includes taking the elderly to churches and stuff, they don't seem to be religious either. Mum (and grandma) on the other hand, gets very very angry if there's any suggestion that we are anything else, even though she never goes to church. I think this determination comes from when Granddad died though, the need for there to be a better place, so they can move on (and I don't think any truth is really needed here).

I do have very little patience for people who are the bible-bashing equivalent of atheist though, perhaps even less than for the usual bible bashers, who've always been friendly to me (I don't mind getting told about religions, I don't know that much about them, and its always interesting talking to random people). I don't fully understand the anger that a lot of people express here (except of course when churches start interfering with other peoples lives). And I'm an angry angry person.

Okay and now for the reasons why I'm not various other religions (this seems to be important to me, because that's mostly how I define my religious standpoint).

I mean I'm not atheist, not just because I don't think its likely there is a god (in the traditional sense) but also because being atheist associates you with a rather strong standpoint that has no defined ethical or behavioral structure behind it, means I don't see any use for it. As well it ties in closely to this people believing in science thing, which REALLY annoys me. I'm trying to be polite about it, but really the idea of using something that seems to be a abstract tool to discover more about the world to guide how you live your life... that idea chills me somewhat. The reason science is so useful is that it doesn't actually require or need belief in its theories (in fact your understanding is helped in a lot of chemistry and physics if you can remember that its not 'real' so much as models that enable us to do things) to get what it can give us. Entirely different to a religion (which requires a certain amount of belief and following to get any of the benefits).

I also have an intense dislike of people saying things like relgion has never done any good for the world. Because (especially at an individual level) I've seen it to many wonderful things to people. I'm not saying their hasn't been horrible things that have happened, there have been, but that often the good things religion (even organized) religion can bring are often understated in arguments.

I'm not Anglican, probably mostly because I dislike being told I am, all the while, not going to church, not following or knowing ANY of the beliefs involved and getting a sneaking suspicion that those beliefs involved don't actually match all that many of the ones I currently follow.

Hm. For all that this is stupidly long, I'm not sure I've really explained my position well at all.

Re: I'm really out of it, so hopefully this makes sense.

[alias_sqbr]

telling us science says there is no god, always did seem pretty petty and missing the point to me. Religion is more than about whether or not the is a god, I think.

Absolutely. And really, all science can do is comment on individual specific religious claims, and normally the less important ones (the age of the earth isn't actually the core tenet of christianity etc)

Also, I'm not sure anyone actually uses science as a religion. People may try to act in a rational way, but logic still has to work from some sort of arbitrary principles, and you have to choose those somehow. I used to hang out with lots of atheists, and there were all sorts of different ethical/political etc belief systems, about the only thing they had in common was a tendency not to be super conservative about stuff like sex.

There are certain atheistic dogmas which claim to be the One True Atheism, but they're all diametrically opposed to each other :) My grandma is a communist, and I've encountered lots of very obnoxious capitalist libertarians, so I understand the "If that's atheism count me out" reaction. I used to refuse to call myself an atheist for that reason, but eventually decided I wasn't going to let them tell me what "atheist" meant. (I mean if it doesn't mean you fair enough, but I don't like the way the word gets coopted by the extremists)

I also have an intense dislike of people saying things like relgion has never done any good for the world

Me also. You can argue over whether or not it's done more harm than good (personally I think it's too hard to disentangle it from culture to say) but it's definitely done some good.

[stephiepenguin.livejournal.com]

I really actively enjoy discussing theology, but I very (very very very) rarely talk about my own beliefs.

Just to let you know. :o)

[alias_sqbr]

Noted. And it's cool, I certainly have plenty of stuff I don't like discussing.

Instead, have an adorable story about a penguin: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1084037/Lonesome-penguin-cheered-new-friend--stuffed-toy.html

[bunny-m.livejournal.com]

OK, I'm definitely going to have to take the time to read through this and add a hopefully more coherent and shorter comment than I did on angriest's LJ.

I'd love to do it now, but it is late, I have to be at work in too damn soon, and I sadly can no longer access LJ at my place of employment. *sadbunny*

Reply to this in case I forget to follow through on this promise.

[alias_sqbr]

*replies* :)

[terrycat.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about this for a while....
I've said I was Roman Catholic, but that isn't so much my beliefs as what I'm labeled.
I believe that on the one hand, gods exist. Even if they only exist in our minds, they still exist and can affect us.
On the other hand, religion is not that important. I'm curious about what comes next, but religion isn't going to tell me. And if the only reason you're being good is the hope of a reward or fear of punishment when you die, then you aren't really being good anyway.
So the way I see it is believe what you want, but try not to let that get in the way of doing good.

[alias_sqbr]

So I've tried explaining my religious beliefs a couple of times (Two good examples being here and here) and as you can see am pretty much incapable of not going totally tl;dr, but briefly (ha ha):

Strictly speaking I'm an agnostic, since there are certain religious/supernatural etc things I think could be true (though I tend to think they're not) But most of the time when people say "Are you an atheist?" they mean "Are you certain the christian god doesn't exist?" to which I can say "Yes, definitely", so I tend to say I'm an atheist.

That said I think there's a lot going on the world people don't understand, and see no reason why it's fair for me to assume that I'm 100% lucid and all the religious people are deluded/fooling themselves etc, so think it's not impossible that there's something those people are connecting with I'm just not getting.

[penchaft.livejournal.com]

Atheist.

[alias_sqbr]

I am shocked. Shocked I say!

[evil-megz.livejournal.com]

It's interesting although completely understandable that on the one hand you allow people an open forum to express their religious beliefs, and on the other you insist people with a particular belief (that religion is bad) don't fully express it. I know ultimately atheists are welcome here to discuss their own beliefs and the restriction is on them abusing other people for their beliefs... but when it comes down to it nobody can really express their own beliefs without the implication that they think all conflicting beliefs are wrong. I'm not arguing with the restriction, since the old religious debate is so bleh, it is just very difficult to find the line between religious opinion and religious intolerance.

I say all this largely because, well, I am quite religiously intolerant, and I consider my beliefs against religion to be a defining characteristic of my own religious beliefs. I am entirely atheist, excusing my knowledge that there is no such thing as knowledge and I cannot actually know anything and thus am technically agnostic about everything including the sky's blueness and my own existence.

The only thing that stops me actively taking a stance against religion (beyond just attempting to point out its flaws every now and then) is that a person's religious beliefs are not the entirety of that person. I'm not going to abuse somebody for being religious because in the vast majority of cases they are an otherwise good person and do not deserve it. It's like somebody who, say, is a pretty good person but litters. You think their littering is wrong and you may attempt to change their opinion on the matter, but you will still be friends with them and treat them with respect.

(If anybody wants to discuss with me why I am atheist and religiously intolerant, I suggest we take it elsewhere)

[alias_sqbr]

Yes, and I did have a think about that. I mean I think saying "I think religious people are wrong" is ok, what I'm trying to avoid is someone saying "I'm religious" and someone else replying "YOU'RE WRONG". Same way as saying "I think you need to do *blah* to go to heaven" is ok, but not commenting to you or I saying "But you need to do *blah* or you won't go to heaven!"

But yes, it's a very hard line to draw. I think I went too far the other way, have removed my edit and left the text as angriest wrote it.

[lauredhel.livejournal.com]

I'm an atheist.

As I said there, I believe intensely in the separation of Church and State, and also believe that so long as we continue to fail at that (and we are failing), there can be no true, mutual religious/spiritual tolerance.

Atheists are angry because of Christianist hegemony that interferes with our human rights. To me, telling us not to be angry is like telling feminists to be nicer.

Asking us not to go out of our way to be meanyheaded to individuals who are minding their own business is, obviously, just fine.

[alias_sqbr]

I believe intensely in the separation of Church and State, and also believe that so long as we continue to fail at that (and we are failing), there can be no true, mutual religious/spiritual tolerance.

Yes, and being angry about that is I think completely understandable. It makes me pretty angry sometimes, though I'm as likely to get angry on behalf of religious non-christians as atheists. (Well, apart from the genuinely "Pro all religions but anti-atheism" crap which assumes everyone has a "higher power" e.g. in * Anonymous or "The Artists way". Though I guess that probably excludes some religions too like animism. Maybe?)

It's the assumption (which you're not making, but I have seen other people make) that every religious person (or every christian, etc) is in favour of theocratic hegemony and thus as an individual worthy of anger which is the problem. I guess the reason I get so annoyed by it is that I got HEAPS of crap from my atheist friends when I was a left-wing, pro-science, pro-separation-of-church-and-state christian, and this actually made me stay christian longer since it seemed the more open minded option. Unfortunately I can't think of a way to say "Don't be an intolerant atheist" etc which keeps the genuinely mean spirited atheists in line without making the decent-but-justifiably-angry atheists feel like they're being told to shut up.

[elaran.livejournal.com]

I have been going through an 'I don't believe there is a God' phase for the past few years. But when it came down to it, if someone asked what religion I was, I would say Hindu because, well. It's a cultural thing? I dunno, currently I just avoid thinking much about religion and where I stand on it [for me - don't really care about anyone else cos I do believe that religion&faith is something that's between you and whatever deity you believe in and if you don't believe, no skin off my back but no one gets to tell me that what I believe or don't believe in terms of religion is wrong or that doing so makes me a lesser person].

I agree with lauredhel about separation of Church and State.

I kinda posted about religion before. (http://elaran.livejournal.com/350067.html)

[alias_sqbr]

Mm, yes, I think we discussed this on my last post about religion (I decided I needed another one since the only people to reply to that one were at least kind of atheist which I assumed wasn't entirely representative :))

[mandragora2003.livejournal.com]

Having thought about this for.... oh, minutes, I've come to the conclusion that I believe in people. (Yes! They do exist!)

As in; Human nature; humane and otherwise. I think that there are forms of human nature that I prefer, and would hope to emulate myself. I have also somehow retained the happy belief that other people have similar thought processes. By and large, most people try to do what they think is the "right" thing to do. If that impacts on me, I reserve the right to whinge about it; otherwise, I think other people have the right to believe whatever they want to. This probably means that I am insane, or at least deluded.

An awful lot of people chose expediency over altruism.

I cherish a hope that karma/ cosmic balance/ justice has a basis in reality.

I would rather be remembered as a nice person than as a brilliant bastard.

Still, I figure it'll all end up okay in the end, one way or the other.

So possibly my best tag would be "spiritual" rather than "religious". Definitely "optimist". That said, I trend towards Catholicism.

[alias_sqbr]

No they don't! You're all figments of my imagination!!!

*cough* Sorry, didn't mean to assault you with my beliefs there :)

Anyway, thankyou for replying, I was a little fuzzy on what you believed. I do remember the trend to at least the catholic version of the Lords Prayer from school :)

[nico-wolfwood.livejournal.com]

Protestant Christian of no particular denomination. I don't believe in the Bible as the word of God or that the Church (any church) is able to dictate my own spiritual beliefs however. I believe that it is, my personal responsibility to define my relationship with a higher power/God.

[alias_sqbr]

Thankyou.

[flyingblogspot.livejournal.com]

The short answer is 'atheist' but the short answer isn't very interesting. I shall add some sprinkles and whipped cream on the top:

- Seventeen years of Catholic upbringing and schooling; after rejecting that, it's only been in the last couple of years that I've come to a kind of peace with the idea that one can be 'culturally Catholic' without being theistic. (It's not an idea I see very much among Catholics, although it sees common among my Jewish friends.)

- I believe that theism derives from an human tendency to anthropomophise a mind-bogglingly huge and complex universe into something more cognitively manageable. In this, I suppose, I have a lot in common with panthiests.

- My personal spiritual practice is fluid, and vaguely totemic, as anyone who has seen my tattoos will attest. I struggle to find the words to explain this without sounding totally mad, but my deer god and cat goddess are best understood as parts of myself - constructs or archetypes perhaps - through which I process the universe. I find it useful to have guides when I'm meditating and they do the job.

[alias_sqbr]

I think mandragora2003 has a similar catholic-themed-not-catholicism. I have a very protestant themed atheism, I guess, though it's not quite the same thing.

I believe that theism derives from an human tendency to anthropomophise a mind-bogglingly huge and complex universe into something more cognitively manageable. In this, I suppose, I have a lot in common with panthiests

Same.

I'm really out of it, so hopefully this makes sense.

[greteldragon.livejournal.com]

I've been trying to work this out in my head for quite awhile.

I mean to start with I'm pretty strongly agnostic. We don't have all the information, so we'll probably never _know_ what's out there. Current scientific theory tells us that its pretty unlikely, but scientific theories change as we learn and discover more. So *shrugs* telling us science says there is no god, always did seem pretty petty and missing the point to me. Religion is more than about whether or not the is a god, I think.

I do however have a very strong ethical and belief system, it changes over time, but its something I stick to, study and use to try to make myself a better person. vegetus mentioned that being vegan was the main part of her beliefs, I wouldn't go as far as this (partly in that I'm 'only' vegetarian, but also I feel there's more to my beliefs than my eating habits/lifestyle). Still being vegetarian, is certainly the main thing people think when it comes to this, its easily the most visible.

My family seems to be a mixture of Anglican and atheist though. Dad doesn't believe there's anything out there, and while his parents do a lot of volunteer work which includes taking the elderly to churches and stuff, they don't seem to be religious either. Mum (and grandma) on the other hand, gets very very angry if there's any suggestion that we are anything else, even though she never goes to church. I think this determination comes from when Granddad died though, the need for there to be a better place, so they can move on (and I don't think any truth is really needed here).

I do have very little patience for people who are the bible-bashing equivalent of atheist though, perhaps even less than for the usual bible bashers, who've always been friendly to me (I don't mind getting told about religions, I don't know that much about them, and its always interesting talking to random people). I don't fully understand the anger that a lot of people express here (except of course when churches start interfering with other peoples lives). And I'm an angry angry person.

Okay and now for the reasons why I'm not various other religions (this seems to be important to me, because that's mostly how I define my religious standpoint).

I mean I'm not atheist, not just because I don't think its likely there is a god (in the traditional sense) but also because being atheist associates you with a rather strong standpoint that has no defined ethical or behavioral structure behind it, means I don't see any use for it. As well it ties in closely to this people believing in science thing, which REALLY annoys me. I'm trying to be polite about it, but really the idea of using something that seems to be a abstract tool to discover more about the world to guide how you live your life... that idea chills me somewhat. The reason science is so useful is that it doesn't actually require or need belief in its theories (in fact your understanding is helped in a lot of chemistry and physics if you can remember that its not 'real' so much as models that enable us to do things) to get what it can give us. Entirely different to a religion (which requires a certain amount of belief and following to get any of the benefits).

I also have an intense dislike of people saying things like relgion has never done any good for the world. Because (especially at an individual level) I've seen it to many wonderful things to people. I'm not saying their hasn't been horrible things that have happened, there have been, but that often the good things religion (even organized) religion can bring are often understated in arguments.

I'm not Anglican, probably mostly because I dislike being told I am, all the while, not going to church, not following or knowing ANY of the beliefs involved and getting a sneaking suspicion that those beliefs involved don't actually match all that many of the ones I currently follow.

Hm. For all that this is stupidly long, I'm not sure I've really explained my position well at all.

Re: I'm really out of it, so hopefully this makes sense.

[alias_sqbr]

telling us science says there is no god, always did seem pretty petty and missing the point to me. Religion is more than about whether or not the is a god, I think.

Absolutely. And really, all science can do is comment on individual specific religious claims, and normally the less important ones (the age of the earth isn't actually the core tenet of christianity etc)

Also, I'm not sure anyone actually uses science as a religion. People may try to act in a rational way, but logic still has to work from some sort of arbitrary principles, and you have to choose those somehow. I used to hang out with lots of atheists, and there were all sorts of different ethical/political etc belief systems, about the only thing they had in common was a tendency not to be super conservative about stuff like sex.

There are certain atheistic dogmas which claim to be the One True Atheism, but they're all diametrically opposed to each other :) My grandma is a communist, and I've encountered lots of very obnoxious capitalist libertarians, so I understand the "If that's atheism count me out" reaction. I used to refuse to call myself an atheist for that reason, but eventually decided I wasn't going to let them tell me what "atheist" meant. (I mean if it doesn't mean you fair enough, but I don't like the way the word gets coopted by the extremists)

I also have an intense dislike of people saying things like relgion has never done any good for the world

Me also. You can argue over whether or not it's done more harm than good (personally I think it's too hard to disentangle it from culture to say) but it's definitely done some good.

[stephiepenguin.livejournal.com]

I really actively enjoy discussing theology, but I very (very very very) rarely talk about my own beliefs.

Just to let you know. :o)

[alias_sqbr]

Noted. And it's cool, I certainly have plenty of stuff I don't like discussing.

Instead, have an adorable story about a penguin: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1084037/Lonesome-penguin-cheered-new-friend--stuffed-toy.html

[bunny-m.livejournal.com]

OK, I'm definitely going to have to take the time to read through this and add a hopefully more coherent and shorter comment than I did on angriest's LJ.

I'd love to do it now, but it is late, I have to be at work in too damn soon, and I sadly can no longer access LJ at my place of employment. *sadbunny*

Reply to this in case I forget to follow through on this promise.

[alias_sqbr]

*replies* :)

[terrycat.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about this for a while....
I've said I was Roman Catholic, but that isn't so much my beliefs as what I'm labeled.
I believe that on the one hand, gods exist. Even if they only exist in our minds, they still exist and can affect us.
On the other hand, religion is not that important. I'm curious about what comes next, but religion isn't going to tell me. And if the only reason you're being good is the hope of a reward or fear of punishment when you die, then you aren't really being good anyway.
So the way I see it is believe what you want, but try not to let that get in the way of doing good.