Untangling religion from issues with christianity

[sqbr]

EDIT: HMMMMM. So it would appear my framing of this question is flawed thanks to my simplistic understanding of religion and other such ineffable philosophical things my non-arts-major brain gets very confused by. I may take a while responding to comments while I have a serious think about what I really mean.

So most arguments I've seen for being religious use some very flawed arguments. Unfortunately, so do most arguments against being religious, and this bugs me (I'm always more annoyed at the flaws of "my side"). One of the main flaws in both(*) is an assumption that either you're christian or you're an atheist: thus if you can poke holes in atheism people must automatically convert to christianity, and if you can poke holes in Christianity you've proven atheism is the best choice.

And a lot of the time the "Christianity" people are criticising is a straw man anyway, based either on fairly extreme denominations or just particular annoying individuals.

So I thought I'd go through all the things atheists tend to say "all religions" do and see how many are actually true of all religions.

Where I can think of specific counterexamples which prove my point I've included them. To avoid the sense that I'm cheating, I've tried to avoid religions like Deism and Wicca since they were to some extent deliberately designed to avoid the "annoying" bits of christianity , and I'm sticking to large organised religions which are fairly active nowadays.

Also: these "flaws" are not all actually flaws per se, they're just things atheists tend to complain about :)

Many members of any large group of people, including atheists

• Have prats, weirdoes, kooks and extremists
  
• Are smug against those outside the group
  
• Are hypocritical
  
• Use straw man arguments
  
• Teach their children to agree with them
  
• Make overgeneralisations (Yes, this is a generalisation :D)
  

All religions

• supernatural beliefs
  
• a certain amount of reliance on faith (I've become convinced that "faith", like "superstition", too easily turns into a weasel word meaning "Strong belief held by people I think are irrational". It can have positive meanings, but they don't apply to all religions)
  

Most denominations of christianity (with counterexamples from other religions)
And to make it extra clear: these are COUNTERexamples.

• immaterial (probably immortal) soul ()
  
• belief in a god or gods (Jainism, Taoism)
  
• personal God communicated with through worship and prayer (Deism)
  
• interventionist God (Deism)
  
• Afterlife (Taoism)
  
• One size fits all spirituality (Wicca, Mahayana Buddhism)
  
• evangelize (Judaism, Hinduism)
  
• disbelief is immoral (Baha'i)
  
• Faith trumps reason when deciding on spiritual matters ( (religious) Theravada buddhism)
  
• fairly rigid ideas about what sex is and is not allowed (Wicca)
  
• Holy book advocates violence, sexism, racism, etc (Sikhism, plus all the ones with no holy book)
  

Some christians

• nonbelievers automatically go to hell
  
• anti-science
  
• anti-sex/fun
  
• literalistic adherence to dogma
  
• The world is fair and just
  

A LOT of this is probably wrong. I'm as blinded by my limited religious upbringing as anyone else, I'm more trying to get people to think about it than educate anyone, but will fix any errors people point out.

So, what have I missed or gotten wrong? I can see this being something that bugs atheists, christians, and non-christian-religious-types so I expect you all to contribute :D Please note: I'm not interested in issues people have with particular religions that aren't ever claimed to hold for all religions, which is why there's no "Most denominations of Islam" etc section. And I know some non-christian religions do some of the stuff in the christian sections, but not all of them. I single out christianity not because it's particularly bad, but because it so dominates our culture that people have trouble seeing past it.

Also: No taking potshots at other people's belief systems! There is a difference between saying "A common criticism of religion is that it's evangelical" and "I HATE EVANGELISM FOR THESE REASONS...". Do not do the second, take it to your own lj :P (And this includes ranting about how much atheists suck)

(*)Which I have encountered in western, christian-dominated society. I'm sure these arguments take on a very different flavour in, say, India. This post totally doesn't address that.

Comments

Re: Codicil B

[alias_sqbr]

If you believe that there isn't anything out there but provide no proof to verify that, is your belief in it faith?

Well obviously this depends on how you define "faith", and the beliefs if the individual atheist. I would say that some of them do have faith in the non-existence of gods.

But I would say most atheists (myself included) are agnostic atheists and think it's an insult to religious people to imply that all there is to their belief is "being quite certain".

I think that a strong belief shows itself to be faith when you take an action based on this belief even when logic says it's a bad idea, or you keep the belief even when evidence (as you perceive it) points against it. (It was still faith before then, but your actions would be indistinguishable from someone with the same beliefs but no faith)

For example, I tend to believe that alternative medicine is bunk. But I do not have faith that it is bunk, so when someone I trust said a particular acupuncturist helped their cfs, I gave it a go. If it had worked I would have been a bit irritated to be proven wrong but I wouldn't have had a "crisis of faith".

Similarly, if I encountered sufficiently unambiguous proof that a god or gods exist I'd be very surprised and have to re-evaluate how I see the world etc (since I see it being about as likely as the existence of dragons) If it turned out those signs had always been there and I'd missed them I would have a lot of angst about my "faith" in my own perceptions I guess, but I'm not sure that's equivalent. There are things I sort-of have faith in, but the non-existence of gods isn't one of them.

Also, there are theists who don't have faith, ie agnostic theists, Deists etc.

Anyway, this is all a bit off topic! That and I've had this argument like a million times, as have most atheists I imagine :P

Re: Codicil B

[firvulag.livejournal.com]

You've worded what I was thinking perfectly for me, thanks :)

I think if Incontrovertible proof of a God(s) or no God came to light, there would be masses of conversions to whichever 'belief' system was correct, as it's no longer a belief system. There will always be those that hang on for years and even generations longer. Flat earth believers for example.

And yes, a bit off topic and something most of us have run through in one form or another.

Re: Codicil B

[alias_sqbr]

Sorry I was a bit grumpy in my wording, I thought better of it after having a shower but you'd already replied. Your fault for getting "if I ever lose my faith in you" stuck in my head :)

I think if Incontrovertible proof of a God(s) or no God came to light, there would be masses of conversions to whichever 'belief' system was correct, as it's no longer a belief system. There will always be those that hang on for years and even generations longer. Flat earth believers for example.

Absolutely.

Although I think I'd stick to the "I've gone mad" hypothesis for quite a while. When I fell into a coma and woke up in hospital it took them quite some time to persuade me I wasn't at home, hallucinating :) (It didn't help that I was semi-hallucinating for a bit)

Re: Codicil B

[firvulag.livejournal.com]

Perfectly ok. I know I haven't necessarily been clear and concise lately. Comes with having a brain that's trying to deal with living.

I certainly know the hospital scenario as well, waking up somewhere you weren't messes with the head. Especially if you're drugged to deal with the problems.