Mars=the wild west

[sqbr]

I am so unbelievably low on spoons right now I cannot express it (on the plus side this is as a result of building myself to have a Serious Conversation About My Future at work, which is now done. More on that when things are more settled)

But something on Foxtel just now I wanted to note: a documentary about possible terraforming of Mars explicitely comparing it to "other frontiers through history", with images from the American West and talk about how "Colonists would do the same thing all colonists have done, packing light and preparing the land as they go..".

Some context: For those not aware of it, there is a Big Conversation happening right now about A fantasy novel with an American frontier..minus the American Indians(*). And one of the major points which has been brought up is that without indiginous peoples to exploit (not to mention indentured workers and slaves) the american colonists would have died, or at least not expanded so fast or so easily. In lots of ways the whole myth of the Frontier is a horrible racist lie.

And it's a lie with a lot of attraction to nerds, and this documentary illustrates that pretty well.

As to comments: I probably am not up to answering them, not for a while. And no playing BINGO.

(*)In case you can't find a synopsis in there, I shall arbitrarily pick one by someone I know :) And yes, that is my favourite author in the whole world making a racist ass of herself :(

Comments

[sqbr]

Actually my silence was the result of starting several long rambly posts but always running out of steam halfway through :D

Oh I'm not one of these people who gets totally put off books if the author turns out to be a douche, I even read Orson Scott card still sometimes (and conversely, I don't get upset if people say bad stuff about authors I like). That and I already thought she was kinda racist, though not to the extent of such gratuitous pantslessness.

Still, it's soured the little daydream I had of meeting her one day. I shall just stick with the books.

What I find interesting, actually, is that people have been talking about race (and the lack of any variation thereof. Though I always read the Cetagandans as pseudo-Japanese) in the Vorkosigan books, but it's much more of an issue in her other series. Something noone seems to have brought up, and I mean to ask about when I am spoonier, is how American Indians feel about her Sharing Knife books, since from the ones I've read they are a very thinly veiled Farmers vs Indians star-crossed lovers story. They didn't scream "Racist othering" to me, but didn't feel amazingly insightful either. The Chalion books, on the other hand, are most definitely anti-muslim. They own slaves! And are homophobic! And narrow minded! Except the one nice gay muslim couple who had to escape to nice safe western europe after being tortured by the mean muslims. They're ok.

[daedala]

Oh. Wow. I totally missed that about Chalion.

Which I admit to have mostly forgotten. I was so incredibly angry about the free-pass-for-waterboarding that I haven't read anything of hers since.

[sqbr]

I was so incredibly angry about the free-pass-for-waterboarding that I haven't read anything of hers since.

I get the feeling I don't want to know, but..the what?

[daedala]

That is how I read Paladin of Souls. Ista helped torture a man to death. I don't think the narrative ever really took responsibility for that. It seemed, if I recall correctly and I may not, to be handled as a regrettable necessity, and the correct words were never used.

[sqbr]

I may be interrogating the text from the wrong perspective, but here's how I saw that:

To me it felt like it was a regrettable necessity while dy Lutez was volunteering, but once he withdrew his consent and they forced him to keep going they crossed the line into immorality, and that's why they both felt so incredibly guilty, to the extent of Ista going mad for a while.

I may have to reconsider should I reread the book.

[daedala]

Oh, I agree that it was ok, for certain values of ok, while there was consent. In a sort of YKIOKBNMK kinda way. :)

The thing is, the line was crossed, and I don't think feeling really guilty and going mad for a little while are sufficient recompense for, well, waterboarding a man to death. It was clear that she helped to kill him; I don't think the narrative really made it clear that it was torture. I may be misremembering on that point.

I spent a very long time in a major clinical depression. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but I don't think it would pay one's debt to society for that sort of thing, either.

[sqbr]

It was clear that she helped to kill him; I don't think the narrative really made it clear that it was torture

Hmm. Point. I think I have some holes in my ethical framework with regards to torture I need to poke at, because it's not something I've thought about very hard before (I mean I'm against the usual "governments do it to get information" sort, but there's more to it than that)

HMM. I guess...I don't hold fantasy characters to the same rules as regular people. Because they're all classist and sexist and go around murdering people and doing all sorts of weird things because of Destiny/The Gods. Or something. Yet I've been irritated myself by very similar plotlines in other fantasy. Man, you've got me thinking now, my brain hurts :)

[daedala]

Hmm. How about the internal consistency angle?

Consider how many of her bad guys are signaled as such by torturing people. The reader is supposed to be sickened and appalled by what Bothari does in Warrior's Apprentice, not okay with it. Torture is very explicitly tied to rape, too. Serg Vorbarra, Ges Vorrutyer, the Cendagandans in Ethan of Athos, the people who tortured whassname in Curse of Chalion, the villain in Hallowed Hunt, and there are probably more because it is actually a pretty big theme of hers. It happens in a lot of books.

Only in Paladin of Souls is torturing someone presented as anything other than sickening, appalling, and marking-of-villainy. There are some differences -- Ista is a woman, Ista was doing it for the good of her country (or thought she was, and wasn't that a creepy bit of Milgram-esque self-justification?), Ista didn't enjoy it -- but the fact remains that she did it.

I'm sorry to hurt your brain. :( I'm frankly obsessed with ethics lately. I need to get some Real Philosophy Texts.

[sqbr]

It's not that I mind having my brain hurt, it's just that it means my response to "Well what about blah?" is likely to be "Um. I don't know. Good point." :)

For example, when I ask myself "How is Ista different from those other torturers?" my brain responds with "I don't know, she just is! I think.". Which is not very useful.