(nb this post is aimed at those interested in both fanfic meta and anti-racism, though I think the broader point transcends fanfic)
Something I've noticed in recent discussions relating to or following on from RaceFail, such as seen for example on![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
metafandom, is a tangent into the nature and differences of different parts of fandom (well, between me starting this post and now that conversation seems to have died anyway. But the main point stands!) These ideas are afaict a natural progression from recent discussions and events, and are not meant to deliberately derail discussions of race. But that doesn't change the fact that, like a derail, this is a change of direction away from uncomfortable truths and social justice.
My question is: Is this something we should actively work against? Or should we just try and keep the two conversations separate? Or make sure they don't become separate?
I've been pondering this post for several days while getting over a headache, and it's gotten rather tl;dr, sorry :)
Various posts as example
This has been my experience with the issue since I think it captures my ambivalence:
I felt Admitting Impediments: Post-WisCon Posts, Part I, or, That Post I Never Made About RaceFail '09 conflated anti-racism with fanfic advocacy, but I also had other non-race related issues with the post and other parts of the discussion.
My first post didn't mention race at all and implied that the MOST important part of her post was the notational choices. In retrospect, that was (inadvertent) derailing.
Then when I decided to write about it properly, to avoid falling into the same trap, I split my thoughts into two posts, What annoys me about fanfic meta about itself and Old school fandom: Can we fix it?. The former currently has 52 comments (admittedly, some of them are about racism but in a very abstract way), the latter...4. Now with any individual instance here's other factors involved (they're posted at different journals for a start) and certainly for example Unpopular opinions is hardly wanting for comments(*).
But after reading![[profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
aquaerei's own post going on an abstract tangent, the criticisms she received, and the following apology, I started thinking about the dynamics of the situation.
(*)Although as![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
delux_vivens points out in the comments, this is still a white POV getting all the attention.
The sort of post I'm less sure of the ethics of
Below I go into some of the more obviously bad behaviours I've tried to avoid during RaceFail etc. But then there's posts which do not claim to be a part of the discussion, but are clearly inspired by or referring to it, and riff on similar ideas. For example, even if I hadn't said that What annoys me about fanfic meta about itself was in relation to these posts anyone reading my lj and the same posts as me would probably realise it AND could (and in a couple of cases, did(*)) continue their thoughts from those other discussions in a more abstract setting with no particular reference to fighting racism.
Which, I don't know. Feels like it's taking advantage of all the momentum FOC have worked so hard to control and apply to fighting racism, and using it to discuss..fanfic. Or semantic distinctions between fandoms etc. Which is worse than simply ignoring RaceFail and talking about some other unrelated topic in a way that doesn't tap into the discussion, since that's less likely to distract people and steal the momentum.
But at the same time, there's nothing inherently wrong with writing non-race-related meta (assuming it's not racist or from too much of a white POV etc. Which does not go without saying!) So if you get inspired to write it, should you post it anyway and hope people don't get too distracted? Wait until the conversation moves on and it's not so much a tangent as an unrelated idea (which noone is talking about any more)? Make sure it's only a sidenote to a main focus on racism? Is it better to put all the related thoughts together or separate them out? EDIT: Note that I think that non-race-related meta on a totally unrelated topic is not a derailing danger in the way I'm worried about.
What should we do if the conversation does seem to be shifting away from race? Of course here we hit the fact that there isn't ONE conversation anyway. (I tend to judge dynamics based on my reading lists and metafandom) And one of the major problems is that white voices dominate "the conversation", and specifically, dominate my reading lists. Hmm.
(*)This is not meant as a criticism of you guys, just a comment on the dynamic
Some brief thoughts on the dynamics of Racefail type situations to give some context, feel free to skip
So first off: white people don't like being forced to confront racism they are complicit in. When confronted with it we will almost always try and deny the accusation and/or change the subject. This is something white people wishing to fight racism must combat in others and themselves.
Suppose you have a big discussion of race like RaceFail going on. There are a lot of common mistakes white people have to avoid (and many don't). First is not saying or doing something really offensively racist. Second is dismissing/insulting people for being too rude/going on about it too much, or derailing other people's discussions onto some other topic (like, say CLASS).
Another less damaging but still problematic response is to completely ignore it, to go on posting about the correct format for fanfic headers etc. It's harder for anyone else to criticise this behaviour because for all they know you're reading along and discussing it with your friends in real life, or simply haven't realised the discussion is happening etc. EDIT: And of course there really are lots of good reasons for not engaging. But there are also bad ones. So I'd give the benefit of the doubt to someone else staying quiet but strongly question my own motives, if that makes sense.
Now if you can manage to avoid those (plus others I probably missed, this is not an indepth analysis) you might consider yourself on the "good" side (which is not a very helpful way to think of it but anyway..) But a more subtle trap is to act like you're part of the discussion but are actually talking about something else: a more abstract analysis, or switching the focus onto how some OTHER group is racist etc. This is bad because you're appropriating a movement to deal with very specific problems to talk about your own interests and are also avoiding self criticism.
FOC (and allies) have gone to great lengths to control and maintain the analysis and criticism of particular issues relating to race and fandom, despite constant attempts by lots of white fans to derail or dismiss their criticisms. The fact that there's now/at certain times a peer pressure to listen to them and engage with the discussion has been achieved at great cost and we white fans who want to be anti-racist allies need to support FOC and not be a part of the problem.
And since the longer I leave this the longer it gets, I shall stop there :) I have a feeling (and hope!) this is one of those topics where I write a long rambly post to get everything out of my head and then condense it better later. Also I can't help but notice that for a post which has, as one of it's conclusions, that we should make more of an effort to center the voices of FOC, I don't have any links to anything they've said...
EDIT: Act of Derailing is a good complex post with lots of links which pokes at some of these ideas.
Something I've noticed in recent discussions relating to or following on from RaceFail, such as seen for example on
metafandom, is a tangent into the nature and differences of different parts of fandom (well, between me starting this post and now that conversation seems to have died anyway. But the main point stands!) These ideas are afaict a natural progression from recent discussions and events, and are not meant to deliberately derail discussions of race. But that doesn't change the fact that, like a derail, this is a change of direction away from uncomfortable truths and social justice.My question is: Is this something we should actively work against? Or should we just try and keep the two conversations separate? Or make sure they don't become separate?
I've been pondering this post for several days while getting over a headache, and it's gotten rather tl;dr, sorry :)
Various posts as example
This has been my experience with the issue since I think it captures my ambivalence:
I felt Admitting Impediments: Post-WisCon Posts, Part I, or, That Post I Never Made About RaceFail '09 conflated anti-racism with fanfic advocacy, but I also had other non-race related issues with the post and other parts of the discussion.
My first post didn't mention race at all and implied that the MOST important part of her post was the notational choices. In retrospect, that was (inadvertent) derailing.
Then when I decided to write about it properly, to avoid falling into the same trap, I split my thoughts into two posts, What annoys me about fanfic meta about itself and Old school fandom: Can we fix it?. The former currently has 52 comments (admittedly, some of them are about racism but in a very abstract way), the latter...4. Now with any individual instance here's other factors involved (they're posted at different journals for a start) and certainly for example Unpopular opinions is hardly wanting for comments(*).
But after reading
aquaerei's own post going on an abstract tangent, the criticisms she received, and the following apology, I started thinking about the dynamics of the situation. (*)Although as
delux_vivens points out in the comments, this is still a white POV getting all the attention.The sort of post I'm less sure of the ethics of
Below I go into some of the more obviously bad behaviours I've tried to avoid during RaceFail etc. But then there's posts which do not claim to be a part of the discussion, but are clearly inspired by or referring to it, and riff on similar ideas. For example, even if I hadn't said that What annoys me about fanfic meta about itself was in relation to these posts anyone reading my lj and the same posts as me would probably realise it AND could (and in a couple of cases, did(*)) continue their thoughts from those other discussions in a more abstract setting with no particular reference to fighting racism.
Which, I don't know. Feels like it's taking advantage of all the momentum FOC have worked so hard to control and apply to fighting racism, and using it to discuss..fanfic. Or semantic distinctions between fandoms etc. Which is worse than simply ignoring RaceFail and talking about some other unrelated topic in a way that doesn't tap into the discussion, since that's less likely to distract people and steal the momentum.
But at the same time, there's nothing inherently wrong with writing non-race-related meta (assuming it's not racist or from too much of a white POV etc. Which does not go without saying!) So if you get inspired to write it, should you post it anyway and hope people don't get too distracted? Wait until the conversation moves on and it's not so much a tangent as an unrelated idea (which noone is talking about any more)? Make sure it's only a sidenote to a main focus on racism? Is it better to put all the related thoughts together or separate them out? EDIT: Note that I think that non-race-related meta on a totally unrelated topic is not a derailing danger in the way I'm worried about.
What should we do if the conversation does seem to be shifting away from race? Of course here we hit the fact that there isn't ONE conversation anyway. (I tend to judge dynamics based on my reading lists and metafandom) And one of the major problems is that white voices dominate "the conversation", and specifically, dominate my reading lists. Hmm.
(*)This is not meant as a criticism of you guys, just a comment on the dynamic
Some brief thoughts on the dynamics of Racefail type situations to give some context, feel free to skip
So first off: white people don't like being forced to confront racism they are complicit in. When confronted with it we will almost always try and deny the accusation and/or change the subject. This is something white people wishing to fight racism must combat in others and themselves.
Suppose you have a big discussion of race like RaceFail going on. There are a lot of common mistakes white people have to avoid (and many don't). First is not saying or doing something really offensively racist. Second is dismissing/insulting people for being too rude/going on about it too much, or derailing other people's discussions onto some other topic (like, say CLASS).
Another less damaging but still problematic response is to completely ignore it, to go on posting about the correct format for fanfic headers etc. It's harder for anyone else to criticise this behaviour because for all they know you're reading along and discussing it with your friends in real life, or simply haven't realised the discussion is happening etc. EDIT: And of course there really are lots of good reasons for not engaging. But there are also bad ones. So I'd give the benefit of the doubt to someone else staying quiet but strongly question my own motives, if that makes sense.
Now if you can manage to avoid those (plus others I probably missed, this is not an indepth analysis) you might consider yourself on the "good" side (which is not a very helpful way to think of it but anyway..) But a more subtle trap is to act like you're part of the discussion but are actually talking about something else: a more abstract analysis, or switching the focus onto how some OTHER group is racist etc. This is bad because you're appropriating a movement to deal with very specific problems to talk about your own interests and are also avoiding self criticism.
FOC (and allies) have gone to great lengths to control and maintain the analysis and criticism of particular issues relating to race and fandom, despite constant attempts by lots of white fans to derail or dismiss their criticisms. The fact that there's now/at certain times a peer pressure to listen to them and engage with the discussion has been achieved at great cost and we white fans who want to be anti-racist allies need to support FOC and not be a part of the problem.
And since the longer I leave this the longer it gets, I shall stop there :) I have a feeling (and hope!) this is one of those topics where I write a long rambly post to get everything out of my head and then condense it better later. Also I can't help but notice that for a post which has, as one of it's conclusions, that we should make more of an effort to center the voices of FOC, I don't have any links to anything they've said...
EDIT: Act of Derailing is a good complex post with lots of links which pokes at some of these ideas.
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On your more specific point, I think that the problem is when you go "this post is part of conversation X" and then produce something that isn't about racism at all. That I can see how people might view as derailing. Whether the solution is to make your post without mentioning the racism conversation at all, or to make it while acknowledging your tangent, I don't know. I can't see being inspired by ideas or discussing fandom as bad things in themselves. Perhaps it's lack of attribution that's the problem?
I think there will always be conversations about race, so "waiting until it's died down" may not really be possible.
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Absolutely, and I didn't make that clear. I guess my point is that while there may well be good reasons for an individual stepping back at a given time, I think we do have to question that tendency in ourselves and as a group if taken too far (where "too far" is a complicated measure depending on context). Also I think that if you decide not to get involved then a post which is TOTALLY unrelated (like random kitten picspam :)) avoids the derailing problem I'm worried about.
I think there will always be conversations about race, so "waiting until it's died down" may not really be possible.
Yes. But for example, if there's a conversation specifically about "The ways different parts of fandom deal with race" then non-race-related meta about "The different parts of fandom" might best be delayed.
I don't know, it's possible I'm being overly paranoid but I thought it was worth asking the question.
painful analogy
Whitefandomstania natives try to have a conversation about immigrants and refugees and how they're treated in Whitefandomstania. It's quite painful, particularly as there's a significant fraction of WFS nationals who don't think there's any particular problem. At some point, one of the WFS nationals who does think immigrants could be treated better, think they notice a pattern: WFS who think immigrants could be treated better are more likely to wear bright colours, while the ones who don't think there's much of a problem wear subdued colours.
The inhabitants of WFS are now caught up in this (to them) very exciting discussion about groups differences within WFS, whether these groups even exist, what the differences consist of, with the attitudes towards immigrants and migrants seen as an incidental side effect of some more fundamental differences in the WFS identity.
And the UNF are tapping their feet, saying "guys, we don't care how excited you are about this internal discussion, when are you going to start treating immigrants and refugees to meet UNF standards? Do you even want to join?"
Re: painful analogy
The UNF/WNF power dynamic is way off, but I realise that's not the central part of the metaphor.
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from fight_derailing over on LJ
This exactly.
When I have something to say that's more of a rambly figuring things out post I usually private it (or flock it at least!) until I am sure it's something that'll be helpful and not ALL ABOUT ME. Yanno.
Great post. I like your thinky stuff.
Re: from fight_derailing over on LJ
Anyway, thanks.
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If however your aim is to clarify your own thoughts by discussing them with your flist then that is a separate matter. I would say that can still be useful to the FOC, but in a more abstract way - you are no use to them as an ally unless you are clear about things in your own mind. But if you wish to avoid the risk of derailing then it should maybe begin with some clear explanations about what you are doing and why, and certainly provide links back to the real discussion, and perhaps often as not it would be more appropriate under a flock.
Finally, if your aim is to win fame and glory and host a big discussion by riffing off the interest in the main discussion, than that probably is an unworthy aim and you should stop yourself.
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