Poll: Are you a feminist?

[sqbr]

So, I've always had a certain amount of interest in women's rights, but always felt a bit put off by feminism for reasons I couldn't articulate. I eventually decided to dig a bit and either get over it or figure out what the problem was. In the process I've become convinced of two things:
(a) I am a feminist, and feminism still has a lot of important work left to do
(b) There are a bunch of things I don't really like about the feminist movement as it actually works

And I got curious about you guys experiences and identities.


If you're not sure what the definition of "feminist" is, well... afaict there isn't a completely agreed upon one, but here's a bunch, afaict the consensus is along the lines of "Thinking society deals with gender in a way that, on balance, harms women, and that this should be corrected".

[Poll #1169959]

I'm especially interested in women who don't identify as feminist: do you have an issue with feminism, or do you think it's ok but just don't see any particular need to identify yourself that way? Other people's povs (including mens!) are also welcome, though.

And yes, vegetus, this does give you leave to rant a bit :) Though I would remind everyone to be civil, openminded, and tolerant. Keep in mind that we have some very different POVs here, any one of which will probably strike at least one person as Wrong And Dumb. Please take any narky arguments outside and try not to start any!

As for myself, well, you can see my (mixed) opinions on this lj. ithiliana's post Racism Imbroglios, White Feminist Bloggers, RWOC, and deja vu inspired me to make this poll, I particularly liked the line:

Within feminist discourse sisterhood became simultaneously an unquestioned assumption, an unexamined bond, and a mode of controlling behavior and containing difference.

Comments

Answering dot points: Part 1

[alias_sqbr]

* I have issues with the modern feminist movement, I feel that it has turned away from equality and is very much into being anti-male.

Some parts of it, yes, but not, imo, the bits I mainly engage with.

* Feminism needs to consider culture. If you live in upper middle class white Australia you really don't have as many issues regarding equality as an Indo-Fijian woman (they have the 3rd highest suicide rate in the world- after Greenland and Iceland). What is liberating for one person isn't for another.

Also true. You get some very complex issues on dealing with other cultures while being neither colonialist nor ignoring the plight of the oppressed. I guess the trick here, as with so many things, is to talk to the "oppressed" people themselves and ask what they want.

* I have issues with people who slag off sex workers and anyone else who works in the porn/sex/exotic dance/erotic industries. Sadly the majority of people who I have encountered are also people who identify as being feminist or pro womens rights. As someone who used to work in said industry I got alot of respect from men and alot of bitching from women (who I might like to add are just insecure about who they are and are hiding behind a feminist argument /end bitch).

Huh, see, I must admit that obviously I've had less experience with this than you, but the only non-sex workers I've seen defending sex workers etc are feminists. The pre-feminist attitude was hardly very positive, and the sexist anti-female-sexuality society we live in is imo responsible for a lot of the exploitativeness/danger etc of these industries.

I get the feeling the old-skool first/second wave feminists tend to be quite anti sex which can easily tend into (ironically sexist) anti-sexual-women rhetoric, but there's a strong sex positive tendency in (most but not all) younger, third wave feminists.

* I have had two relationships with men who used to date card carrying feminists. Both occasions the ex went out of her way to break us up. In one case I considered this person to be my friend up until that point, in the other they were just a judgmental fucker. If you are so pro womens rights you wouldn't go out of your way to hurt other women I would have thought...

Fair enough, that does sound nasty. I seem to attract chauvanistic men, which has certainly made me more receptive to feminism.

* Following that line feminists who hide their male partners and treat them poorly are no better than men who beat their wives.

Well, if they beat them, yes.

* I think modern feminism has put pressure on women to have it all- job, house, relationship, family and to be brilliant at it all. We all only have 24 hours in a day and I do not belive that it is possible for anyone to do all of these things equally and be brilliant at them all.

I agree, that is an issue, but imo things are still better than the old days.

Re: Answering dot points: Part 1

[vegetus.livejournal.com]

I didn't expect you to answer all of my dot points as they were very rushed- but thank you. I think you make some good comments. Reading other people's comments here I have to say I agree with greyreview's totally (for once- haha) and gemfye's comments about how women and men are different and this is something we need to acknowledge.

"Also true. You get some very complex issues on dealing with other cultures while being neither colonialist nor ignoring the plight of the oppressed. I guess the trick here, as with so many things, is to talk to the "oppressed" people themselves and ask what they want."

*nods* however you often can find that some groups of women want a western feminist culture rather than embracing their own culture of equality.


"Huh, see, I must admit that obviously I've had less experience with this than you, but the only non-sex workers I've seen defending sex workers etc are feminists. The pre-feminist attitude was hardly very positive, and the sexist anti-female-sexuality society we live in is imo responsible for a lot of the exploitativeness/danger etc of these industries."

About a month ago I was having a discussion with a group of people about the sex industry and had one person basically say that all women in it were oppressive and betrayed other women. I asked her what she would say to a woman who was a stripper or a prostitute and she said she would tell them they should seek support to get out of the industry because they were hurting women and themselves. This is not the first time I have heard this directly (usually people say this without realising what I did for a living). Camilia Pagila and other feminists who are pro-sex industry have been branded as anti-feminist by the mainstream movement. I also recall IWD events in WA that involved protesting against strip clubs and brothels as little as 3 years ago. Even when I wrote a piece for Damsel about stripping many of the women were uncomfortable about it and I got told multiple times I should be careful of what I was doing to myself and to they way women were viewed (Bless the women's officer at the time who I still adore who was the only person who was supportive!)

I guess I can only speak from my own experience talking to people about working in said industry and with people who do (from full service escorts to the counterhands at a porn store both male and female) so I guess all up 200+ people across 4 states. The view is that men are more open and accepting of the industry than women are. When working peeps girls had alot of verbal abuse from women (why you would *pay* to call someone a slut/whore/cunt I have no idea)- yet no abuse from men, but rather respect and they treated you like a person than an object. Interestingly lesbians acted in a similar way so perhaps it is an insecurity thing with the het girls? More open clubs (with stage shows and the traditional pole dancing) have bouncers who tend to through out rowdy groups. Male strippers I have spoken to reported more likely to be groped/other inappropriate behaviour from women than female strippers- and feeling obliged to brush it off/laugh, whilst female strippers reported this happened at a lower rate and they were able to get the person thrown out/tell them to f-off.


"Following that line feminists who hide their male partners and treat them poorly are no better than men who beat their wives.

Well, if they beat them, yes."

Sorry was a little extra ranty then! How you can be women's officer and whine about equality, then tell your male partner not to turn up to events because it would be bad for you to be seen in a heterosexual relationship is nothing short of horrific in my view- not only because of the individual but the view of the women's movement towards the view you couldn't be a good feminist if you had a male partner. I guess what I'm saying is not treating your partner right is something that both men and women do and it is sad that society doesn't see it that way and sadder still that people who are suppose to be for equality don't either.

:)

Re: Answering dot points: Part 1

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

I think the stuff about sex work goes back to the point made much in a much earlier comment -- that feminism isn't one thing, its a whole collection of related views. And one of the things feminists don't agree on is how to deal with sex work. A lot of the people who have done a lot to make sex work safer and more respected call themselves feminist, and a lot of the people who protest against it and try to wipe it out call themselves feminists too, and they are both right. Its a huge controversy inside feminism.

Camilia Pagila and other feminists who are pro-sex industry
Camille Paglia is a whole special case. There are plenty of reasons why she is disliked, most of which go a lot deeper than what she thinks about sex work, such as an obsession with biological determinism. Feminism as a whole is probably a lot more inclined to like people like Suzie Bright or Annie Sprinkle, who are a lot more focussed on sex work, and a lot less focussed on attacking the intellectual foundations of feminism.

Re: Answering dot points: Part 1

[vegetus.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the further information about Camilla Paglia, all of the stuff I have read against her seemed to be attacking her pro-sex stance. And I'll look up those other two authors you mentioned.

Whilst feminism is whatever anyone really wants to make it, it still doesn't stop the negativity of a good proportion of those who identify as feminists against the sex industry.

Re: Answering dot points: Part 1

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

it still doesn't stop the negativity of a good proportion of those who identify as feminists against the sex industry.

I don't disagree, but I'd just point out that most sex workers rights organisations (both old, such as COYOTE, and current, such as Scarlet Alliance (which is, errrr, mostly run by EJ)) are also run by people who strongly identify as feminist.

Re: Answering dot points: Part 1

[vegetus.livejournal.com]

So that was EJ who I saw pictured in the online news at 2020...

Re: Answering dot points: Part 1

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

It certainly was. I am quite envious that she got to go!
EJs hair is quite glorious in its colourfullness at the moment, too.

Re: Answering dot points: Part 1

[alias_sqbr]

I'm sorry to hear so many women are so horrible, even if one is against sex work there's no need to be cruel to the individual women involved.

And yeah, I Do Not Like the anti-sex/anti heterosexuality vibe I get from certain parts of the feminist movement. Luckily most of the feminists I spend time around are pro sex (heterosexual or otherwise) so I sometimes forget how bad the other bits get.

A while ago cupidsbow linked to an interesting essay by Wacky Feminist Sf Writer Joanna Russ: Pornography and the
doubleness of sex for women

I found this passage struck a chord with me:

I think this doubleness of experience may explain the bitterness of the fight against pornography (to which I've contributed as much as anyone, I'm afraid) and the phenomenon of the sides being so very horrified by each other because they are perpetually talking past each other. When A attacks violence and B hears her attacking sexual freedom, B will defend sexual freedom — and A will hear her defending violence. You see how it goes, round and round and louder each time, though A doesn't intend to attack sexual freedom per se, and B doesn't mean to defend violence.

Re: Answering dot points: Part 1

[callistra.livejournal.com]

I am pro-sex. I also believe that when women are happy, confident, relaxed and passionate about life and love, then they're far more willing to experiment with their sex lives.

However I think the porn industry and sex industry have some inherent issues that we're not able to solve at this stage of our societal evolution.

But being awful to sex workers is just a sign of being an awful person.

Re: Answering dot points: Part 1

[alias_sqbr]

Mm, I can see the arguments against the sex industry (unfortunately it's one of those complex situations with no good solution, imo), it's a pity that for every reasonable POV there has to be people who pursue it unreasonably.

Re: Answering dot points: Part 1

[vegetus.livejournal.com]

Good quote!

I guess I haven't ever looked at the sex industry as being about someone's personal "sexual freedom" more as just another job. I don't have people abusing me for working as a carer for old people and sick kiddies and telling me not to value myself on the way I view myself as a carer, yet I did for working in the wider sex industry. The sex industry is just like any other industry- there are a good and bad things about the different jobs and about the industry as a whole and some people love to work there and others don't- but at the end of the day it's just work.

(sorry it's taken me ages to get back to this)