Poll: Are you a feminist?

[sqbr]

So, I've always had a certain amount of interest in women's rights, but always felt a bit put off by feminism for reasons I couldn't articulate. I eventually decided to dig a bit and either get over it or figure out what the problem was. In the process I've become convinced of two things:
(a) I am a feminist, and feminism still has a lot of important work left to do
(b) There are a bunch of things I don't really like about the feminist movement as it actually works

And I got curious about you guys experiences and identities.


If you're not sure what the definition of "feminist" is, well... afaict there isn't a completely agreed upon one, but here's a bunch, afaict the consensus is along the lines of "Thinking society deals with gender in a way that, on balance, harms women, and that this should be corrected".

[Poll #1169959]

I'm especially interested in women who don't identify as feminist: do you have an issue with feminism, or do you think it's ok but just don't see any particular need to identify yourself that way? Other people's povs (including mens!) are also welcome, though.

And yes, vegetus, this does give you leave to rant a bit :) Though I would remind everyone to be civil, openminded, and tolerant. Keep in mind that we have some very different POVs here, any one of which will probably strike at least one person as Wrong And Dumb. Please take any narky arguments outside and try not to start any!

As for myself, well, you can see my (mixed) opinions on this lj. ithiliana's post Racism Imbroglios, White Feminist Bloggers, RWOC, and deja vu inspired me to make this poll, I particularly liked the line:

Within feminist discourse sisterhood became simultaneously an unquestioned assumption, an unexamined bond, and a mode of controlling behavior and containing difference.

Comments

[flyingblogspot.livejournal.com]

I've often wondered if the tendency to mischaracterise 'feminism' as a homogeneous movement prevents many people from identifying with it.

I've personally found reading around the history of the women's movement to be very worthwhile and inspiring - it's such an immense, diverse, loosely connected movement made out of the ideas of so many different individuals - some diametrically opposed to others. I've heard people lament the fragmentation and internal politics, but I do think there's something fundamentally awesome about women getting together to collaborate, argue and figure out what it is that they want and how to get it.

(Susan Brownmiller's 'In Our Time: Memoir of a Revolution' is a fascinating read if you can get hold of it.)

Edited, having read ithiliana's post, to note that, yup, racism within feminism has long been a sadly frustrating problem. (Seems to happen to other movements too - I've seen plenty of both sexism and anti-bi discrimination in the queer movement, some aggressive anti-polyamory/alternative-marriage discrimination in the gay marriage movement and so forth, and as for the labour/socialist movement...I don't even know where to begin.)

[alias_sqbr]

I've often wondered if the tendency to mischaracterise 'feminism' as a homogeneous movement prevents many people from identifying with it.

Absolutely, I only felt comfortable applying the term to myself when I realised that it was ok to be in a feminist "denomination" of one :)

Heh. Yes, you've recommended that to me before, in a comment I happened to come across again yesterday *gets around to checking library catalogue* Yep, it's there, will have to remember to reserve it next time I stop by a library.

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

I've often wondered if the tendency to mischaracterise 'feminism' as a homogeneous movement prevents many people from identifying with it.

Spot on. And then once its identified as a single movement, then suddenly all feminism becomes equated with radical feminism. I think that most women, and many guys, would agree with the core feminist ideas (men and women should be equal before the law, their work should be equally valued, women have the right to control their own bodies, etc) but are put off by the radical feminist idea that the idea of the 'feminine' is a patriarchal construction that should be got rid off.

(not that I'm saying the rad fems are necessarily wrong, just that its off-putting to the mainstream)

I think for many people, realising that feminism is a many-splendored thing that comes in a huge number of types and variations is the thing that allows them to self-identify as feminist. And really, feminism is a huge ongoing debate -- for a lot of the political issues I am interested in (eg censorship and civil liberties issues) there are feminist voices on both sides of the debate, so identifying as feminist doesn't tell me that much about what people believe in that context, only about why they believe it.

[out-fox.livejournal.com]

I am wearing an pastel knit vest & fitted yet plain shirt, with sturdy, aesthetically pleasing skirt of many pleats. This strikes me as not so much unisex or girly as the utilitarian feminine look of retro school marms and spinsters.

I agree with much of what ithiliana says. Especially the points re: ahistorism serving white privilege within feminism. Bickering about whether 2nd wavers or young women "let down" feminism functions as a kind of narcisstic smokescreen to keep marginal women's issues sidelined. Ageism enables ahistorism, ahistorism enables racism.

Although I'm a feminist, I see people who don't identify as feminist because they are actively chauvanist very differently from those who support equality in sexual politics, but don't want to work with feminists because they've witnessed that "mode of controlling behaviour" . It's about the goals, not identity politics to me, so the latter is perfectly valid if all you see is movement drama /prejudice hampering the goals.

[alias_sqbr]

I think that sort of "Us vs Them" attitude is disturbingly common across generational boundaries. I haven't encountered it that much in my dabbles in feminism (though I have a bit) but I've seen it in science fiction fandom (which is totally the same as the feminist movement :))

Also I suppose it's rather like the general way people tend to characterise the past as homogeneously racist and sexist etc, which then magically transformed to this wonderful time when noone is racist or sexist at all, so we don't need to critically examine the past because it is done.

Although I'm a feminist, I see people who don't identify as feminist because they are actively chauvanist very differently from those who support equality in sexual politics, but don't want to work with feminists because they've witnessed that "mode of controlling behaviour" . It's about the goals, not identity politics to me, so the latter is perfectly valid if all you see is movement drama /prejudice hampering the goals.

Absolutely. I get a bit annoyed at feminists who go "Why would anyone not identify as feminist? It just means 'seeing women as people', I guess they must not think women are people". While definitions and identity are very important, actions speak louder than words, and I'd rather someone who was feminist in principle but not in name than vice versa.

[callistra.livejournal.com]

Are you coming to Femmeconne, or considering suggestions for us even if you're not coming? Babalon and I talk about how we unconsciously exclude others, and are looking for ways to rectify or challenge these sorts of things, and I think you have a fantastic POV for this sort of thing.

Great links by the way.

[alias_sqbr]

Yes, probably coming to femmconne. I was too intimidated to go to Gynaecon for years (that and I kept forgetting the panels were on :)) but eventually decided I should go, and it's...wierd. It's like, there's this bunch of friendly intelligent awesome women talking about stuff I'm interested in, and I enjoy it, but something really rubs me the wrong way, and I can't put my finger on it. And I feel a bit worried about trying to nut out what bugs me about it since I don't want to hurt you guys feelings (or have you get narky at me! I'm a big coward :)).

I think part of it is just that I tend to feel more comfortable in gender mixed social situations (I have a moderately male brain, complex female social interactions tend to go over my head :)) Also I have a somewhat irrational and counterproductive tendency to want to make everything open (open doors, open information, open invite...) which has caused me trouble in every committee type position I've been in and runs completely counter to the underground, word-of-mouth way you guys run things.

But I am pondering it very seriously, because I think you are doing really important stuff, and one thing I can offer is a critical perspective :)

[penchaft.livejournal.com]

T-shirt and a long swooshy skirt. WHAT OPTION DO I PICK ;__;

It says "none of the above", not "none" :)

[alias_sqbr]

*looks down*
*is currently wearing exactly that*

I blame the patriarchy!

[tevriel.livejournal.com]

I uh paused to read LJ in the middle of getting changed, because, I don't know, APPARENTLY I LIKE BEING COLD, so I am wearing no pants at all.

*cough*

(And I have a three-second attention span, I also got distracted while writing this comment.)

[alias_sqbr]

Heh. I did ponder "No pants!" as an option. Sounds like a pretty unisex, futuristic outfit to me :)

[callistra.livejournal.com]

I usually read LJ naked. Cos I read LJ before shower and coffee time. I am often puzzled by this.

[infamyanonymous.livejournal.com]

Sleep wear, so very none of the above.

I don't so much have a problem with feminism, but I've just felt fairly neutral about all that sort of thing. When asked about economic inequality, or anything like that, the best I can manage is "It's a bad thing". I'm just fairly politically neutral, like Sweden.

'Feminist' has lots of overtones to it- women are better (than men), women have special creative and communicative skills, women are oppressed, womean are angry blah blah blah. Women a great, men are great. Yeah, in the past there was obvious inequality, and it's not all magically fixed now (especially in particular cultures) and that's the only bit I get annoyed at. Otherwise I'd just like all the world's power and wealth and resources to be put in a metaphorical blender and redistributed over the world. That, however, isn't going to happen because of Fact C- people are jerks of all shapes and varieties.

(I've also met proponents from each end of the spectrum, and it's the do little more than amuse me and discourage me from tipping either side of the grey.)

[alias_sqbr]

I used to feel that way, but kept encountering individual bits of feminist ideas that made me go "Huh. Wait..guh! Now I'm angry!" until eventually I decided to check it out a bit more (if only to prove to myself that they were mostly complaining about nothing) and slowly became more and more aware of the overarching society wide inequality and messed up power structures and attitudes built into the fabric of of everything. Also I realised a lot (but not all!) of my negative ideas about feminism were just propaganda by men who don't like having their power threatened.

By which I mean to say: THERE IS NO ESCAPE, YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED INTO THE FEMINIST HIVEMIND

[vegetus.livejournal.com]

"Fact C- people are jerks of all shapes and varieties."

Indeed. If only there was a movement against jerks.

[edible-hat.livejournal.com]

The trouble with feminism is that a small minority of women use it as an excuse for their sexist behaviour towards men (usually because they've been on the recieving end of sexit behaviour from men, and over-generalise into thinking all men hate women).


Men who have been on the recieving end of that kind of behaviour then think that all feminists (in some cases, all women) hate men.

Until we can get everyone to realise that all generalisations are false (including this one), there's no hope for the future.

[alias_sqbr]

The trouble with feminism is...

Yeah, but that sort of thing is a problem for every movement, they all have their crazies and extremists. And their opponents seize on the extremism and pretend that's all there is. People suck.

Until we can get everyone to realise that all generalisations are false (including this one), there's no hope for the future.

Then we're all DOOMED. All of us! Without exception! :)

[gemfyre.livejournal.com]

I guess I just don't feel the need to identify as a feminist. I've never felt that my being female has hugely oppressed me (about the only thing is the walking alone at night - but heck, these days even guys get beaten and raped in dark alleys).

I don't feel that females should have more rights than males, I think we should be on a level playing field in general.

But I also realise that biologically we ARE NOT the same, and never can be. Both female and male, of any species, have their own role to play.

And to be perfectly honest, I'd love to live a lifestyle where a male completely supported me and I just stayed home and kept house - I'm still undecided as to whether I'd want kids in the equation though.

[gemfyre.livejournal.com]

P.S. I'm wearing a short pink nightie with stars on it.

[evil-megz.livejournal.com]

This is pretty much exactly what I'd been going to comment with.

I don't support feminism since I am treated equal to men in all rational ways. I am different to the average man, though, and so may be treated differently because of this, but this usually works to my advantage as it means not doing things I find hard (such as carrying heavy objects) and instead doing things I am better suited to... and this isn't restrictive on my lifestyle since if I chose to buff up so I could carry heavy objects etc nobody would stop me.

I'm aware that women with different lives to me may be disadvantaged compared to men in their society, but I see this more as an individual human rights issue than a need-for-feminism issue.

[greyreviews.livejournal.com]

Equalitist.

I fully support womens rights to be respected and given equal pay for an equal task. However, this must also be a genuine equal task. For example; on average males are stronger than females, so tasks such as bricklaying are on average going to be done better by men. I have no problem with a women wanting to be a bricklayer, if she can lay as many bricks per hour as the guy next to her, I fully support that she should be paid just as much. However, I disagree with concessions along the lines of "well since you are female you can lay half as many bricks yet be paid the same."

Similarly women are on average less likely to have emotional outbursts than men. Therefore, women are on average better at customer service jobs than men as they are less likey to swear at the jerk-off customers. Once again this doesnt preclude men from having a customer service job, but if they are unable to provide the same level of professionalism and service as their female counterparts they should be paid less. (For those who dont know me, I work in the customer service and female dominated industry of libraries.)

I admit one of the above examples is a lot easier to measure than the other, but my point is still valid, on average women are better at men at some things, and men are better than women at others. However, statistical deviations like myself say that every now and then someone of the other gender can probably do that job as well, so let them and pay them the same.

Moving on from that, (and deliberately avoiding the massive discussion on women in other cultures) the number one oppressor of women in western society is other women.

Men seriously dont give a shit if their boss is female, we dont care about clothes/makeup/hairstyle, and sure we like big tits, but believe it or not we dont think less of women without them.

Pick up any Cosmo, Marie Clare etc womens magazine and its filled with ads and articles telling women how they should change themselves/their outfits to be a better person or make more friends. Pick up a Ralph or FHM and its filled with ads about beer and articles telling men they rock for being just the way they are. Even the more "Upmarket" mens mags like GQ which contain more of the "wear this, drive this" advertising still have an article focus largely on stroking mens egos.

Saying Rupert Murdoch or some other man owns the magazines is a weak argument as for starters he doesnt personally edit all 4gazillion newspapers he owns and all he cares about is sales. If Ms outsold Cosmo you can bet there would be less "The perfect makeup to get the man you want" articles in Cosmo in no time.

[alias_sqbr]

Yeah, I'm a bit ambivalent about affirmative action etc for the few jobs where the (mostly fairly irrelevant) differences between men and women come up. Of course, we're still unpacking the differences between biology and sociology so it's hard to tell which ones they are ie. is it biology that means men dominate the hard sciences and women are starting dominate the soft ones? 20 years ago people said it men would always dominate all the sciences for biological reasons. And even if biology does mean women are statistically less likely to be suited for a job, that doesn't mean we shouldn't fight against sexism against those women who are qualified.

Then again, afaict feminists are more likely to complain about positions of power like CEOs and polititians, which I'm going to assume you agree women are not biologically incapable of.

the number one oppressor of women in western society is other women.

If feminism was just about picking on men you might have a counterargument there, but it's about fighting sexism. Sexism from women is still sexism.

And anyway, most (but not all) of the sexism I've experienced has been from men, so nerr :P

[goth-grrl.livejournal.com]

OK, massive self-edit finished. You don't want a huge angry novel as a comment.

In a number of essentials I identify as a feminist. "Within feminist discourse sisterhood became simultaneously an unquestioned assumption, an unexamined bond, and a mode of controlling behavior and containing difference." And there you have, in a nutshell, why I hardly ever bother getting on the women's rights bandwagon. Men may enforce how women behave but it's women who teach women how to behave, and until a more educated face of feminism makes it out of the white middleclass, I honestly can't see things changing for the better much at all.

My big gripe still remains how insular and selfish your average person is.

[alias_sqbr]

My big gripe still remains how insular and selfish your average person is.

Yeah, that's a pretty big gripe for me too.

[yalovetz]

I am a feminist. Yes, there are many other people who also claim to be feminists who think and say some downright disgusting things. But they can fuck right off, frankly. Doesn't stop me being a feminist.

(Hi, btw. I surfed into this post via the friends page of the Swancon lj community - we did meet at various points during the con.)

[alias_sqbr]

I am a feminist. Yes, there are many other people who also claim to be feminists who think and say some downright disgusting things. But they can fuck right off, frankly. Doesn't stop me being a feminist.

Well put :)

(Hi, btw. I surfed into this post via the friends page of the Swancon lj community - we did meet at various points during the con.)

Totally cool. *take a guess at who you are, is gratifyingly proven correct by your usericons*

[vegetus.livejournal.com]

Yay I get to rant.... whoo hoo!

Except I only just got this far back in my friendslist right now and I'm about to disappear to dinner with my friend Sutie (who is a female who is into social justice). So in short why I am not a feminist and disagree with many feminist ideals:

* I have issues with the modern feminist movement, I feel that it has turned away from equality and is very much into being anti-male.
* Feminism needs to consider culture. If you live in upper middle class white Australia you really don't have as many issues regarding equality as an Indo-Fijian woman (they have the 3rd highest suicide rate in the world- after Greenland and Iceland). What is liberating for one person isn't for another.
* I have issues with people who slag off sex workers and anyone else who works in the porn/sex/exotic dance/erotic industries. Sadly the majority of people who I have encountered are also people who identify as being feminist or pro womens rights. As someone who used to work in said industry I got alot of respect from men and alot of bitching from women (who I might like to add are just insecure about who they are and are hiding behind a feminist argument /end bitch).
* I have had two relationships with men who used to date card carrying feminists. Both occasions the ex went out of her way to break us up. In one case I considered this person to be my friend up until that point, in the other they were just a judgmental fucker. If you are so pro womens rights you wouldn't go out of your way to hurt other women I would have thought...
* Following that line feminists who hide their male partners and treat them poorly are no better than men who beat their wives.
* I think modern feminism has put pressure on women to have it all- job, house, relationship, family and to be brilliant at it all. We all only have 24 hours in a day and I do not belive that it is possible for anyone to do all of these things equally and be brilliant at them all.
* I am against maternity leave, particularly if it is paid. I am in favour of everyone having a certain amount of "family leave" that they can take to care for family members be in elderly grandmothers, best friends recovering from cancer or recently having a kid.
* I disagree with government funding for families.
* I am against the discrimination of child-free people.
* The biggest opponents to my view of "well having lots of kids is bad for the environment and the world and we should screen people who want to breed and have a strict one child policy" are women who identify as feminists.
* I don't think that there are that many hurdles for women in Australian society to overcome.
* I'm a stats junkie. I hate how people complain that women earn less than men on average without considering that men on average work more hours than women.
* I am against womens only space- particularly as the womens movement has been against mens only space.
* I am pro abortion. Please note that I am not pro choice.
* I think both men and women need to take responsibility for contraception.
* There should be respect in all relationships.
* I find domestic violence awareness that promotes the idea that only men hit women, without considering homosexual relationships or heterosexual relationships where women hit men deeply harmful to society.
* I think all feminists should read "The Sexual Politics of Meat" by Carol Adams.

Hey I ranted well in dot-point. There is more, but I'm doing to eat dinner now!

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

I am pro abortion. Please note that I am not pro choice.
You think it should be compulsory? Or, less flippantly, someone else should get to make the choice? Ie compulsory abortion for those that don't abide by your one child policy?

[emma-in-oz.livejournal.com]

I do identify as a feminist. I must confess that I sometimes have to jump on my tendency to judge others on whether or not they are 'really feminist'. Of course, it means what it means to the individual.

I guess the analogy would be that I am anti-racism as well, but I do a lot less in that area so I am open to the charge of talking the talk but not walking the walk. (Though, today was my day for writing a brief to try to get more funding for roads in Indigenous communities so I took at least one or two steps towards activism in that direction).

[alias_sqbr]

It's difficult with this identity stuff. There was a recent interesting discussion at debunkingwhite as to whether or not you could (or should) say racist feminists "didn't count".